Keeping our Multihulls shiny side Up!
- Thread starter boardhead
- Start date
Antares Catamarans have posted up a new video which is bound to cause some controversy but also includes some useful discussion, data, and links.
I didn't want to derail other threads so I started a new topic with their video here:
Are Performance "Cruising" Catamarans Safe?
forums.sailinganarchy.com
I didn't want to derail other threads so I started a new topic with their video here:
Are Performance "Cruising" Catamarans Safe?
Are Performance "Cruising" Catamarans Safe?
Antares Catamarans have posted up a new video which is bound to cause some controversy but also includes some useful discussion, data, and links. I didn't want to derail other threads so I started a new topic with their video. Are Performance "Cruising" Catamarans Safe? Join us as we discuss...
forums.sailinganarchy.com
PIL66 - XL2
Super Anarchist
I have the stability curve for my boat and a sail cross over chart..... (When to reef)
It's called experience and common sense........ which is clearly not common any more
It's called experience and common sense........ which is clearly not common any more
It's clear you don't need one, you probably would be in the red zone all the time anyway ! I think it's more relavent for heavier cruising boats rather than light fast ones. The danger may be loosing the rig than actual capsize as the loads spiral upwards.
2flit
Member
What average apparent windspeeds are you sailing in when this is deemed necessary and what are the peak gusts? What length and beam in general are you sailing. Do you attempt sailing upwind in these conditions at say a 55 AWA?
2flit
Member
Has anyone here on SA turned a 40+ foot 'cruising' trimaran over while well reefed?
Keith
Super Anarchist
This was my situation at the time.
47 foot Crowther design #150, 200 miles off San Francisco, coming in from a run from Hawaii, running in a force 9, severe gale, conditions visually confirmed as described in the Beaufort scale, sailing with no main on a 62' rotating carbon rig, and tiny staysail.
Carried this configuration for ten hours and had one sneaky wave try to flip us over, came out of nowhere, not part of the regular wave train, and beam on, she simply went up onto close-to-beam ends, and slide away into the trough as needed.
Worked exactly as described.
edit to add,
(Thanks for writing your book Gavin)
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he b gb
Anarchist
Spot on, definitely the way to go when conditions reach the stage where you have reduced sail to a minimum, there’s always those steep waves that hit from different directions to the wave train that can scare the hell out of you.
Russell Brown
Super Anarchist
I'm looking forward to the response to this question. Also looking forward to seeing the long term safety of the Rapid series.
Geese
Member
CAPSIZED TRIMARAN CHANGES THINKING (Published 1982)
Walter Greene went on to build several more beautiful tris.
Wess
Super Anarchist
That is a great question Flit. And posed in an interesting way. Lets take away the 40 foot and reefed qualifier and I am guessing we all know lots and lots of tris that have gone over. Farrier, Corsairs, Dragonflys, and the list goes on and on. Given how few tris there are compared to cats its actually kinda telling. Now sure the vast majority of these tri capsizes happened while racing... but there were more cats racing but the tris seemed to go over maybe more frequently (as a % of participants). Not saying that's a fact but its my impression from the fleets I sailed in.
Now on the other hand, even ignoring the well reefed qualifier, I can't think of a single larger (over 40 foot) cruising trimaran that has gone over. The bigger Corsair (36/37), the Farrier F36/39s, the Dragonfly 40, The Rapido 60, one off boats like Finn, Three Little Birds, Skateaway, etc, and quite a few Chris White large tris... a lot of these have a lot of blue water miles and they ain't even been over as far as I recall.
Having owned and or delivered a number of larger cats and tris I will say what I think anyone who has sailed both will agree... the tri talks to you more. The boats makes it quite obvious when its being pushed hard and getting near the limit and also has larger safety factor or cushion when close to that limit. You have a bit more time to save yourself/your boat.
But anyway its interesting. Why do the smaller tris that are 30 or less seem to go over a lot (when racing) compared to the cats - so clearly the type can be easily capsized - but then when looking at the same type only larger do we not see same. We almost maybe see the exact opposite. I am sure someone here will prove me wrong but I can't think of a single larger cruising tri (not racing) reefed or not that has even gone over.
Man I would love to hear Chris White's take on this. He has designed both cats and tris and some of the cats have been over but I don't think the tris have. Can that be... how can that be?!
Geese
Member
I won't blame you for not reading my link about Walter Greene, I don't always click on them but here is some of the material that put me off trimarans, for a long time, of course it only took one actual sail on an F27 to get me totally excited about them, with my Dad scratching his head, still believing the prevailing wisdom/dogma after the 68' Golden Globe and some of the Ill fated OSTAR attempts.
"In the North Atlantic storm, the Gonzo, a 60-foot trimaran, was running before the wind under a storm staysail and towing lines to slow down. Then a 30-foot wave threw the boat on its side and a second wave broke on top of it, covering the helmsman and the cockpit with water. Seconds later the Gonzo was floating upside down 350 miles southeast of Nantucket Island."
Also Jan Gougeons experience with Flicka (31' trimaran, not a Richard Woods boat)
"Jan: Double reef main, the mast feathered in the wind. If only I had stayed up and sailed it. I ain’t kidding you, the boat with that rig will sail to weather in 50 knots of wind with ease. No problems at all if you’re steering it. As long as you’re steering it, it’s not a problem. As soon as you go to bed though, the boat can’t take care of itself. It needs a sea anchor."
Surviving FLICKA’s Capsize, Part 2 - Epoxyworks
By Grace Ombry On June 20, 1979, while sailing in a qualifying race for the OSTAR (Original Single-Handed Transatlantic Race), Jan Gougeon’s self-designed and built 31' trimaran FLICKA was capsized by heavy seas in the North Atlantic. Jan survived on the overturned plywood/epoxy multihull for...
www.epoxyworks.com
Wess
Super Anarchist
Yea but Geese, Flick is small and Gonzo was a racing not cruising boat. To me the interesting part of the question was that it focused on larger cruising boats. Thus my interest in what would Chris White say sinve he has designed and sailed larger cruising cats and tris. A lot. And a few of his cats have been over but not his tris (as far as I know).
jdazey
Anarchist
Caliente, a Chris White Explorer 44, went over while racing in the Great Lakes.
Wess
Super Anarchist
Yea but again, while racing. Not coming up with any cruising trimaran design, that has been flipped while cruising. We can all name cats. But can not think of any tri.
Racing tri's are designed to fly the main hull, cruising tri's are designed not to generally. A cruising tri probably has more initial stability than a cat. Tri's ama's have much more volume than Walters or Jan's did giving better beam clearance and stability. Cruising tri's are relatively rare compared to cats.
boardhead
Anarchist
- Thread starter
- #58
Tom Cox flipped Triad in June 2021. Tom is hugely experienced, bought Triad in St Martin in 1993, brought her to New England, raced very competitively in NEMA for most of those years, organized and came second in the last decent Bermuda race for multihulls in 1996, lost the mast returning home and replaced it with a bigger rig, Tom estimated he had over 50,000 miles aboard her, mostly shorthanded. I two handed with him taking my boat offshore to the Bahamas later in 2021 cos his boat was still in rehab after he had her righted and brought to Walter Greene's yard.
Triad was not reefed when she "rolled over like a kid doing a somersault" in Tom's words, rather sailing in 10 - 15 knots under plain sail when they spotted a cell, tacked away from it, eased the sheets, only to get hit by an estimated 40 knot shifting wind burst that overwhelmed her. Triad is a 42' Newick Creative weighing around 10,000 pounds with a 54' carbon fractional rig. She is equipped with small lifting foils which are effective at speed supplementing the perhaps 100% buoyancy amas. So this is what we would now consider a 40+ foot "cruising trimaran", well sailed by three very competent, alert guys.
Although built by Jim Godbey as a Formula 40 in 1987 and still the record holder for 40' in the OSTAR in 1992, the subsequent modifications by Walter Greene including new, bigger amas, carbon beams, an inboard diesel and wing berths would qualify Up MY Sleeve as a cruiser in my book. She capsized.
The trimarams that Walter was referring to that capsized prior to and including Gonzo were low buoyancy ama types prone to rolling over in big waves. In the seventies it was thought that submersible amas could provide sufficient righting moment to fully exploit the sailing performance of slender hulled racing boats. Phil Morrison was the first to make the amas big enough to fly the center hull on his 53' Exmouth Challenge, later further developed by Nigel Irens with IT 82 and Apricot.
Is that RapidO Russel?
boardhead
Anarchist
- Thread starter
- #59
Well, my cruising tri could fly the main hull when fully loaded, which is mostly why I never capsized her and I certainly would not take my family offshore in a trimaran that could not. I have sailed many miles offshore on trimarans with low buoyancy amas and poor diagonal stability but not with my wife and kids along. Some of those boats were scary!
One thing is for sure, there is quite a range of disparity between what's classed as a cruising trimaran, from a 42' Newick Creative, Chris White Explorer, Juniper, Hammerhead, etc, Rapido, or even Neel...
As another data point, and a story that you may find interesting, is the saga of John Glennie and the capsize of the Rose-Noelle in 1989 on their way from NZ to Tonga. They drifted upside for 119 days and eventually washed ashore back in NZ (to be met with much scepticism and disbelief).
The boat was 41ft self designed and built but similar to the Crowther Buccaneers.
Home built cruising trimarans were quite popular in NZ back then and there were many Crowther, Piver, Newick, etc, inspired variants.
She was laying to a parachute anchor offshore in 40-60kn and 20ft seas, but after a fouled trip line collapsed the parachute the boat lay-a-hull and was subsequently capsized by a rogue wave suggested to be 60ft.
With the boat upside down they mounted a jury rig to catch water and try to survive - see drawing below. John always strongly suggested that multihull sailors should visualise the boat being upside down, where the new waterline would be, and what you could do, and how to live inside the boat after inversion. This was perhaps more important in the past when rescue was by no means certain.
Here's a few articles but there are plenty more if you search for John Glennie or Trimaran Rose-Noelle as the story was pretty big back in the day, and was even made into a film.
As a side note in fact the boat's name is actually Rose-Noëlle, after a beautiful Tahitian vahine that John had met up in the pacific who had later died in a plane crash.
dragdevicedb.com
/cloudfront-ap-southeast-2.images.arcpublishing.com/nzme/DCI2CZQCYERX55FSOKDV55VF7I.jpg)
www.nzherald.co.nz
(interesting story regarding the boat's name)
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www.nzherald.co.nz
(more photos and background on his Facebook)
www.facebook.com
As another data point, and a story that you may find interesting, is the saga of John Glennie and the capsize of the Rose-Noelle in 1989 on their way from NZ to Tonga. They drifted upside for 119 days and eventually washed ashore back in NZ (to be met with much scepticism and disbelief).
The boat was 41ft self designed and built but similar to the Crowther Buccaneers.
Home built cruising trimarans were quite popular in NZ back then and there were many Crowther, Piver, Newick, etc, inspired variants.
She was laying to a parachute anchor offshore in 40-60kn and 20ft seas, but after a fouled trip line collapsed the parachute the boat lay-a-hull and was subsequently capsized by a rogue wave suggested to be 60ft.
With the boat upside down they mounted a jury rig to catch water and try to survive - see drawing below. John always strongly suggested that multihull sailors should visualise the boat being upside down, where the new waterline would be, and what you could do, and how to live inside the boat after inversion. This was perhaps more important in the past when rescue was by no means certain.
Here's a few articles but there are plenty more if you search for John Glennie or Trimaran Rose-Noelle as the story was pretty big back in the day, and was even made into a film.
As a side note in fact the boat's name is actually Rose-Noëlle, after a beautiful Tahitian vahine that John had met up in the pacific who had later died in a plane crash.
S/T-7 Trimaran, “Rose-Noëlle” | Victor Shane's Drag Device Data Base
dragdevicedb.com
Lost at sea: The Rose-Noelle story - NZ Herald
When the four survivors of the wrecked trimaran Rose-Noelle washed up on Great Barrier after being lost at sea for 119 days, the media lapped up the story of the crew's miracle survival, but NZ Customs suspected a drug run gone wrong
www.nzherald.co.nz
(interesting story regarding the boat's name)
Surviving the homecoming - Lifestyle News - NZ Herald
When I heard John Glennie's "Gidday Blossom" on the phone this week, I knew nothing had changed.
www.nzherald.co.nz
(more photos and background on his Facebook)
John Glennie
John Glennie is on Facebook. Join Facebook to connect with John Glennie and others you may know. Facebook gives people the power to share and makes the world more open and connected.
www.facebook.com
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