Kiteboarders v ISAF

couchsurfer

Super Anarchist
18,322
134
NA westcoast
Gotta love those kiteboarders for doing their own thing, and basically telling ISAF to shove it.

....it would be nice if it were as simple as that. :mellow:

Unfortunately, there's competing world associations for kiteboarding,,and competing world cup events ,etc.

Of course,one organization is sanctioned under whirrled sailing,,,the other is not.

I pity the kiters who've moved from the joy of freekiting and into the world of 'organized' sport <_<

 

dogwatch

Super Anarchist
16,903
1,586
South Coast, UK
Some years ago the RYA pronounced that kitesurfing isn't sailing and is therefore outside its remit. Furthermore Sport England, which is the government body for sport here, recognises British Kitesports as the governing body for kitesurfing. Nothing to do with the RYA.

Quite what logic classes windsurfing as sailing but kitesurfing as something else eludes me but that's the position.

Meanwhile, apparently a Paraglider wing isn't a kite. Looks like a kite, operates like a kite, pilots spend hours learning to fly them with their feet planted on the ground but it isn't a kite because that has yet another governing body.

Nothing new I suppose. Spot the boats in this picture.

AC_BNM_GBR309_3.jpg


 
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USA190520

Super Anarchist
Gotta love those kiteboarders for doing their own thing, and basically telling ISAF to shove it.
....it would be nice if it were as simple as that. :mellow:

Unfortunately, there's competing world associations for kiteboarding,,and competing world cup events ,etc.

Of course,one organization is sanctioned under whirrled sailing,,,the other is not.

I pity the kiters who've moved from the joy of freekiting and into the world of 'organized' sport <_<
I was a contest surfer for years and years- once I quit competition I actually started enjoying surfing-

I'm beginning to feel the same way towards top level sailing- I miss just going sailing with a few friends

 

MR.CLEAN

Moderator
46,296
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For around thirty years now, ISAF (now known as World Sailing) has had a peculiar rule. It's a rule that almost every other sporting organization long ago learned wasn't enforceable, but somehow, World Sailing didn't get the memo. And as The Ed reported yesterday, World Sailing is using this rule as a bludgeon to try to kill off a potential rival for control of kiteboarding - and the megamillions ready to flow the sport's way when the Olympic money faucet turns in in a few short years (or way sooner).

We are not opining on whether World Sailing is the proper governing body for kiteboarding. It may be the best possible option, and the kiters could be lucky to have them in command. But we sure don't remember a robust public debate about it, or a vote among the millions of kiting enthusiasts to submit to ISAF control over their competition rather than some other body. And we do remember the manner in which ISAF quietly snatched control of all things kiting in 2009 and immediately threatened independent kiting organizations. It was nasty, and wrong. And in some countries, we believe it is illegal at worst, and unenforceable at best.

We believe the IKFO can be the organization that finally invalidates ISAF World Sailing's absolute control over the word "World", and shines a light on the legally questionable and chaotic patchwork of regulations the sport's governing body uses to prevent a problem that doesn't exist. Easy for us to say - we're not volunteering to fund a legal challenge to World Sailing's threat to the IKFO. But it's definitely worth a few hours of investigation by a good lawyer if the IKFO is a real organization and not some kind of stunt.

Word War 19

At issue is World Sailing Regulation 19.14, which says a sailor's eligibility for all sailing events "may be suspended or revoked...for competing in a Prohibited Event' without ISAF approval, that 'uses the word "world" either in the title of the event or otherwise...'

In other words, if you go race in the 'Stand-Up-Paddleboard-With-Big-Sail World Cup', and World Sailing finds out, they claim they can prevent you from sailing in any event that uses the ISAF Racing Rules for two full years.

Now maybe they can in some countries. Hell, maybe they can in most countries. But as many other sports have found out, there's a chunk of the world where the government doesn't allow sporting bodies - especially those with government-granted monopolies like US Sailing or ISAF - to exclude competitors because they don't like their extracurricular activities. If you're talking about livelihoods, it gets even worse for World Sailing - try to explain to a US Court that you're preventing a sponsored kiteboarder from earning a living because he sailed a weekend event in some unrelated organization's 'World Cup.' If you can do that with a straight face, you need to talk to an American lawyer. Or ring Jim Capron, the President of US Sailing back when the organization got smacked around by Farrah Hall's legal team, blowing hundreds of thousands in legal fees and costs in their support of ISAF-written rules on eligibility. It's a slam dunk.

It's not that complicated:

It's not the World Cup, it's the FIFA World Cup.

It's not the Formula One World Championship, it's the FIA Formula One World Championship.

It's not the Skiing World Cup, it's the FIS Skiing World Cup.

It's not the Boxing World Championship, it's the WBA, WBC, WBO, IBA, IBC, IBO World Championship.

Does anyone really think these sports' governing bodies are less sophisticated than World Sailing? Maybe they have dumber lawyers or less creative rule writers? Major League Baseball can't even prevent foreign baseball leagues from using the words "World Series", but somehow World Sailing can control an even more general word? Why is this even a question anymore?

Answer: Because no one has challenged it. But a little pushback and the invalidation of the offending part of Regulation 19 would be a great thing for World Sailing in the long run. They could stop defending archaic ideas and focus on building their reputation and their brand, whatever it's called these days.

We say to IKFO: Get your wallets out, find yourself a hungry lawyer itching for a fight, and make some noise for kiteboarding just as the Olympics starts thinking about turning on the money faucet for a new discipline in sailing, or board sports, or whoever ends up owning the kites.

 
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couchsurfer

Super Anarchist
18,322
134
NA westcoast
________ said:
After what happened with the Olympics and the sewer, I think it is time to actually truly break away. But I know it won't happen.


...oh, maybe it will. Perhaps IFKO will get some legal advice from Clean.

....what could go wrong? :mellow: :lol: :lol:

 
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Dawg

Moderator
7,862
1
Gotta love those kiteboarders for doing their own thing, and basically telling ISAF to shove it.

For those of you who can't find the front page, especially if you want to see some hurt put on the assholes at ISAF, this could end up being a good one.

http://sailinganarchy.com/2016/02/02/idiots-on-parade/
They probably took a lesson from how IFDS was a quasi extension of ISAF (the Brits) and how the Brits bankrupted IFDS and now ISAF (World Sailing) has lost sailing from the Paralympics. Yea, the Brits fucked it all up.

Kite boarding better to do it right, rather than trust anyone else.

But Really, Sailing is on it's way out of the Olympics. If the LA 2024 (light air) Olympics does not save sailing, I predict sailing is............................OUTTAHERE, except for maybe 2 events, Kites and Cats.

LA 2024 better make big use of Hurricane Gulch for sailing.

 

NoStrings

Super Anarchist
8,088
6
Richmond, CA
DQOTD to Peter H. :

Do we actually need these fuckheads, and by fuckheads I'm referring to the entire WS body? Who the fuck funds them? What would be the process by which WE (meaning competitive sailors) told them to fuck the hell off?

 

Dawg

Moderator
7,862
1
DQOTD to Peter H. :

Do we actually need these fuckheads, and by fuckheads I'm referring to the entire WS body? Who the fuck funds them? What would be the process by which WE (meaning competitive sailors) told them to fuck the hell off?

I'd love to see the West Coast of the USA, Australia and NZ get together, only if the Aussies and NZ do away with the Queen bullshit. Then tell the North Atlantic Sailing Nations that we will use the same rules (only changed a bit), but because we can sail the year around, we are going to change a few things. Like time for more fun and some limits on spending $$$$$$ for the Olympics because sailing has no real corporate sponsors. I wonder how the IOC would read that?

 

SimonN

Super Anarchist
10,532
753
Sydney ex London
You guys have got this story all wrong. What you need to understand is that IFKO is not the recognised international federation for kiteboarding. That is the IKA. IFKO is a rival organisation trying to wrestle control of kiteboarding away from the recognised international body.

All international sports organisations need to be recognised by SportAccord, which was set up in 1967 by a group of 27 international sports federations as an umbrella organisation for all international sports federations. Check it out, but suffice to say that every sport I can think of has its international federation recognised by SportAccord. It is not some joke organisation but the true guardian of international sports federations. To get recognised is a rigorous process that is designed to protect international sports federations. Kiteboarding has a SportAccord recognised international federation - the International Kiteboard Association. The IFKO is trying to muscle in to control the sport and does not have recognition from SportsAccord.

To put this into perspective further, the IFKO doesn't list any member national organisations, because nobody has registered with them, The IKA has many national federations as members.

This is not WS trying to do over kiteboarders. Kiteboarderts are already well represented by the IKA. This is WS supporting IKA against an illegitimate organisation trying to hijack kiteboarding.

 

MR.CLEAN

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This is not WS trying to do over kiteboarders. Kiteboarderts are already well represented by the IKA.
There are more than a few kiteboarders who disagree, obviously. You don't think the way the IKA slid under ISAF's umbrella was suspicious?

 

couchsurfer

Super Anarchist
18,322
134
NA westcoast
You guys have got this story all wrong. What you need to understand is that IFKO is not the recognised international federation for kiteboarding. That is the IKA. IFKO is a rival organisation trying to wrestle control of kiteboarding away from the recognised international body.

All international sports organisations need to be recognised by SportAccord, which was set up in 1967 by a group of 27 international sports federations as an umbrella organisation for all international sports federations. Check it out, but suffice to say that every sport I can think of has its international federation recognised by SportAccord. It is not some joke organisation but the true guardian of international sports federations. To get recognised is a rigorous process that is designed to protect international sports federations. Kiteboarding has a SportAccord recognised international federation - the International Kiteboard Association. The IFKO is trying to muscle in to control the sport and does not have recognition from SportsAccord.

To put this into perspective further, the IFKO doesn't list any member national organisations, because nobody has registered with them, The IKA has many national federations as members.

This is not WS trying to do over kiteboarders. Kiteboarderts are already well represented by the IKA. This is WS supporting IKA against an illegitimate organisation trying to hijack kiteboarding.


....really? you're kidding me. I had no idea :mellow:


Gotta love those kiteboarders for doing their own thing, and basically telling ISAF to shove it.

....it would be nice if it were as simple as that. :mellow:

Unfortunately, there's competing world associations for kiteboarding,,and competing world cup events ,etc.

Of course,one organization is sanctioned under whirrled sailing,,,the other is not.

I pity the kiters who've moved from the joy of freekiting and into the world of 'organized' sport <_<

 

PeterHuston

Super Anarchist
5,903
81
DQOTD to Peter H. :

Do we actually need these fuckheads, and by fuckheads I'm referring to the entire WS body? Who the fuck funds them? What would be the process by which WE (meaning competitive sailors) told them to fuck the hell off?
Who funds WS is easiest - mostly the IOC through TV money (NBC...who is the sailing commentator for NBC? Who is a VP of WS? Follow the money to why WS never said anything negative about Rio). Some sponsorship and fees from MNAs and classes.

What WS has done is assume control of the sport through their designation as the sports representative to the Summer Olympics, then the rules. A lot of people believe the rules are in the public domain, but ISAF has assumed a copyright that has never been challenged.

Then that control flows to the MNA and classes.

So, if you want to be in the Olympics, you have to play by WS rules, process and procedures. That said, those vary greatly from country to country - it is why as Clean mentioned Farrah Hall kicked the crap out of US Sailing and Charlie Cook. ISAF, specifically then Secretary General Jerome Pels tried to help Charlie screw Farrah. He lost. In another country, what US Sailing to Farrah probably would fly.

But for the rest of us? It then boils down to insurance for the most part and other certifications that are tied to all this. Essentially, a quasi-governmental regulatory body. Glenn McCarthy is best positioned to talk about the whole insurance aspect of this - his father invented the club insurance program for USYRU. There's an interesting story about how US Sailing tried to get the McCarthy's to give them a whack of sponsorship, but Gene said he didn't see the value and all it would do is raise premiums, so he told them to fuck off, and they told him to fuck off, and gave the contract to others. Gene McCarthy was, and is, a stand up guy for the sport. He said it best when USYRU changed their name - they are no longer an association, but now a corporation.

There's a lot of people in the US and around the world that volunteer their time for the betterment of the sport. Whatever problems WS and US Sailing have is largely not of the making of these people. The consistency of the rules and (some) of the training of race officers, judges ect is of value. The majority of that is really member to member - but stick a US Sailing or WS staff person in-between with some sort of quasi licensing thing and fees...yeah...that doesn't help anything, except those being paid for that stuff.

Can there be a successful revolt to something else? I think the revolt has been well under way for a long long time.

People voted with their feet and left the game.

How to change all this - I really don't know, absent someone having probably $10 million to seed the change and help sustain it.

What on earth would be so wrong with another entity that promoted fun and racing at the same time? Is WS going to collapse if there is another entity helping to run and promote the sport? If it does, will the world stop spinning on its access? Will giant black holes open up in the universe? if this were a spelling bee, neither WS or US Sailing could spell "fun" if you spotted them the F and U.

I am of the opinion for the vast majority of sailing that happens in the world, WS is completely unnecessary, and counter productive. Same with US Failing.

 
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PeterHuston

Super Anarchist
5,903
81
You guys have got this story all wrong. What you need to understand is that IFKO is not the recognised international federation for kiteboarding. That is the IKA. IFKO is a rival organisation trying to wrestle control of kiteboarding away from the recognised international body.

All international sports organisations need to be recognised by SportAccord, which was set up in 1967 by a group of 27 international sports federations as an umbrella organisation for all international sports federations. Check it out, but suffice to say that every sport I can think of has its international federation recognised by SportAccord. It is not some joke organisation but the true guardian of international sports federations. To get recognised is a rigorous process that is designed to protect international sports federations. Kiteboarding has a SportAccord recognised international federation - the International Kiteboard Association. The IFKO is trying to muscle in to control the sport and does not have recognition from SportsAccord.

To put this into perspective further, the IFKO doesn't list any member national organisations, because nobody has registered with them, The IKA has many national federations as members.

This is not WS trying to do over kiteboarders. Kiteboarderts are already well represented by the IKA. This is WS supporting IKA against an illegitimate organisation trying to hijack kiteboarding.
Yup, WS sure is pure as the driven snow. Awesome track record they have lately. Gotta love the coverup that Atkins did for himself in Malaysia.

What's so wrong with another group of Kiteboarders trying to be a governing body?

You can trust WS, they won't cum in your mouth.

 
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SimonN

Super Anarchist
10,532
753
Sydney ex London
You guys have got this story all wrong. What you need to understand is that IFKO is not the recognised international federation for kiteboarding. That is the IKA. IFKO is a rival organisation trying to wrestle control of kiteboarding away from the recognised international body.

All international sports organisations need to be recognised by SportAccord, which was set up in 1967 by a group of 27 international sports federations as an umbrella organisation for all international sports federations. Check it out, but suffice to say that every sport I can think of has its international federation recognised by SportAccord. It is not some joke organisation but the true guardian of international sports federations. To get recognised is a rigorous process that is designed to protect international sports federations. Kiteboarding has a SportAccord recognised international federation - the International Kiteboard Association. The IFKO is trying to muscle in to control the sport and does not have recognition from SportsAccord.

To put this into perspective further, the IFKO doesn't list any member national organisations, because nobody has registered with them, The IKA has many national federations as members.

This is not WS trying to do over kiteboarders. Kiteboarderts are already well represented by the IKA. This is WS supporting IKA against an illegitimate organisation trying to hijack kiteboarding.
Yup, WS sure is pure as the driven snow. Awesome track record they have lately. Gotta love the coverup that Atkins did for himself in Malaysia.

What's so wrong with another group of Kiteboarders trying to be a governing body?

You can trust WS, they won't cum in your mouth.
You seem to miss the point. This is really a battle between IKA and IFKO. Forget your ongoing thing with WS for a moment and consider what is really going on here.

 

weightless

Super Anarchist
5,607
583
________ said:
Rowing went through a dust-up in the 90s. A new organisation called the Master's Rowing Association was formed that competed with USRowing because the latter--surprise-surprise--only cared about Olympic elites.

I haven't paid attention in over a decade--to that aspect. Not sure what came of it all.
Maybe sailing needs "Masters" Sailing in the way that other sports do? AFIK and FWIW, in the US, US Masters Swimming and USA Swimming get along pretty well and serve the different needs of their athletes pretty well.

 

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