KWRW Predictions?

I find it funny that one can drink anytime they choose to but can only race during events that they make drinking such a big deal-

Ffs, go buy a bottle of rum.

Glad I race against you all and not with... smh
<_<

I was more lamenting getting caught at the door while all of the crew i was with were bs'ing in the bar. Sometimes i could get in, often i couldn't.

 

USA190520

Super Anarchist
I thought the panel on growing the sport was funny- tp52s maxi 72s and how great a job they were doing growing our sport... smh.

Not one amateur or club racer said a word- it was lewick double fisting cock after cock... even dawn got hers sucked, although she does actually help get people on the water...

 

Wang

Member
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detroit
Reading the above really puts a sour note on the already sad state of KWRW.

Here is what I know after being lucky enough to spend some time in southern most city this year.

Key west really isn't the same wild Wild West culture destination that it was when I made my first regatta back in 1998. Its much more touristy, professional and the obviously the once cheep oasis for wayward sailors isn't nearly as affordable as it once was....Heck I didnt even feel like I was about to get robbed but some drunk vagrant at any point this year

The sailing was amazing and probably one of the best weeks of great weather that I have experienced in a while.

Somehow with most of Florida being the shit hole that it is the water is still crystal clear sea life is abundant and healthy.

Race management was first class, well organized, and well run

Good competitors flock to this event from around the globe. Even though we are seeing a decline in numbers I would argue that this event must still attract more international and high caliber competitors than any other single keel boat event inside the US.

In my opinion the J70 class in its current format is utterly ridiculous and what is killing sailing. I going to try and not throw any stones but how does a "normal person" even compete in that class at the moment???

Sure we can all argue that the nails are firmly placed in the coffin and this event is dead but I would actually argue that we are so very lucky to have gotten the opportunity to race in this unique venue for so long.

I for one am hoping to get the opportunity to head south again and watch the haters bitch and complain while I enjoy racing in the conch republic

 

ZeeZee

Member
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In my opinion the J70 class in its current format is utterly ridiculous and what is killing sailing. I going to try and not throw any stones but how does a "normal person" even compete in that class at the moment???
I don't see the problem.

If your playing Tennis, your not playing at Wimbledon or the Australian open. These events are for the top pro's. You would compete in the same sport (tennis) but at the local club level and not complain about the Austrailan Open not being accessible for amateurs.

So simply acknowledge that there are different events for pro's and amateurs like us in sailing as well. Saying that, I believe that in sailing (relatively speaking) the difference between amateurs and pro's is by far not as big as in (again as an example) tennis. Any amateur would simply not make 1 single point against a top player, while in sailing their might be moments where you can catch up with them.

 
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sunseeker

Super Anarchist
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In my opinion the J70 class in its current format is utterly ridiculous and what is killing sailing. I going to try and not throw any stones but how does a "normal person" even compete in that class at the moment???
I don't see the problem.

If your playing Tennis, your not playing at Wimbledon or the Australian open. These events are for the top pro's. You would compete in the same sport (tennis) but at the local club level and not complain about the Austrailan Open not being accessible for amateurs.

So simply acknowledge that there are different events for pro's and amateurs like us in sailing as well. Saying that, I believe that in sailing (relatively speaking) the difference between amateurs and pro's is by far not as big as in (again as an example) tennis. Any amateur would simply not make 1 single point against a top player, while in sailing their might be moments where you can catch up with them.
My interpretation is that wang was talking about the money it now takes to compete in the J70 to hire paid rope pullers. You seem to be talking about talent.

 

Wang

Member
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detroit
Sailing does have many different levels of professionalism. We get to compete in anything from the very very basic forms of cruising races all the through the Volvo ocean race/America's cup. Even inside of a event like KWRW we get to see the flying tiger 7.5's or Navigator's course to the TP52's.

In my mind sailing does a great job of being inclusive in the regards of finding the right boat/class for just about anyones wants and needs

In regards to my comment about the J70 class. I think its a good boat for making sailing easy and for letting people sail with friends and family. I will even say it does a great job of getting a large mass of people out on the line and promote many different regatta's a year.

My issue is that (besides the boats not being consistently measured even with all the alleged/confirmed amount of cheating going on) some of the top teams must be spending upwards of $6000-$10000 a day on wages. I am in no way blaming the owners or crews on these boats for hiring top level talent as its all fair and legal but realistically I just have to shake my head and feel sorry for all the "family teams" who bought the boat for its big accomplishment of making competitive sailing easy.

Like I said I am not throwing stones because in all fairness I have certainly been accused of racking up the price to compete in the 30 class while at the same time knowing that some of J70 teams are spending not only much more per event than the team I sail with but also more annually. It just doesn't add up to me as to how fostering these kind of efforts in a class that is billed to grow sailing can be good for the class, events, or more importantly sailing as a whole

 
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Car Ramrod

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Like I said I am not throwing stones because in all fairness I have certainly been accused of racking up the price to compete in the 30 class while at the same time knowing that some of J70 teams are spending not only much more per event than the team I sail with but also more annually. It just doesn't add up to me as to how fostering these kind of efforts in a class that is billed to grow sailing can be good for the class, events, or more importantly sailing as a whole
I think, Dan, because there will always be people in sailing who want to feel like they have a built in "edge" over the other guy before the event even starts. Either by making a small but significant modification to their boat, or buying newer/radical sails, or paying an undergraduate degree worth of tuition to a team of pros to help them race a 21 foot boat. There are those who want the excitement of beating the biggest fleet, and those who want the excitement of having the biggest boat. Hence the crazy money being spent on J/70s (41 boats) and TP52s with a dwindling number of people in between. It's been the same thing in a lot of past, present, and future OD/Box classes. The J/24 and the Etchells or the IOR Maxis and the Maxi72s.

You all in the 30s seem to have chosen C&C because it's a cool boat that can be easily campaigned (logistically and cost wise) and you enjoy the boat and the racing more than just "look at all the boats I've beaten" or "look at how big my boat is."

My two cents. Nice job at this event. Whats next?

 
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Crash

Super Anarchist
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Sailing does have many different levels of professionalism. We get to compete in anything from the very very basic forms of cruising races all the through the Volvo ocean race/America's cup. Even inside of a event like KWRW we get to see the flying tiger 7.5's or Navigator's course to the TP52's.

In my mind sailing does a great job of being inclusive in the regards of finding the right boat/class for just about anyones wants and needs

In regards to my comment about the J70 class. I think its a good boat for making sailing easy and for letting people sail with friends and family. I will even say it does a great job of getting a large mass of people out on the line and promote many different regatta's a year.

My issue is that (besides the boats not being consistently measured even with all the alleged/confirmed amount of cheating going on) some of the top teams must be spending upwards of $6000-$10000 a day on wages. I am in no way blaming the owners or crews on these boats for hiring top level talent as its all fair and legal but realistically I just have to shake my head and feel sorry for all the "family teams" who bought the boat for its big accomplishment of making competitive sailing easy.

Like I said I am not throwing stones because in all fairness I have certainly been accused of racking up the price to compete in the 30 class while at the same time knowing that some of J70 teams are spending not only much more per event than the team I sail with but also more annually. It just doesn't add up to me as to how fostering these kind of efforts in a class that is billed to grow sailing can be good for the class, events, or more importantly sailing as a whole
Wang,

While I, like you, just don't get the money some people pay just to say they've won. A, anyone with a boat can take to to KW and compete. They need to be realistic about their goals, but they can compete. Also, there were 10 teams scored as "Corinthians", and I'd bet most of them wanted to start and race with the pros just for the excitement of a 38 boat start, and to maybe be able to say how many pro teams they beat. I also think that if a decent sized group of "family teams" wanted to take their boats to KWRW and have their own start and class, they could petition the organizers and have a pretty good chance of getting it. If fact if they were savvy about it, and talked to J/Boats, I bet J/Boats would support it as well - as it would mean they would be able easily support and ad campaign about the family friendly boat, and get even more sales.

While I haven't read the rules, I'm pretty sure if they really wanted to, the group of "family" owners could even get a "family/amateur" division formally organized and written into the rules. Someone would have to take the lead and do the leg work/groundwork to make it happen. But it could certainly "happen. Right now most of what I hear is people "wishing" it were somehow different, but not really doing anything to actually make it different..

Just my 2 cents..

Crash

 

sunseeker

Super Anarchist
3,688
618
Sailing does have many different levels of professionalism. We get to compete in anything from the very very basic forms of cruising races all the through the Volvo ocean race/America's cup. Even inside of a event like KWRW we get to see the flying tiger 7.5's or Navigator's course to the TP52's.

In my mind sailing does a great job of being inclusive in the regards of finding the right boat/class for just about anyones wants and needs

In regards to my comment about the J70 class. I think its a good boat for making sailing easy and for letting people sail with friends and family. I will even say it does a great job of getting a large mass of people out on the line and promote many different regatta's a year.

My issue is that (besides the boats not being consistently measured even with all the alleged/confirmed amount of cheating going on) some of the top teams must be spending upwards of $6000-$10000 a day on wages. I am in no way blaming the owners or crews on these boats for hiring top level talent as its all fair and legal but realistically I just have to shake my head and feel sorry for all the "family teams" who bought the boat for its big accomplishment of making competitive sailing easy.

Like I said I am not throwing stones because in all fairness I have certainly been accused of racking up the price to compete in the 30 class while at the same time knowing that some of J70 teams are spending not only much more per event than the team I sail with but also more annually. It just doesn't add up to me as to how fostering these kind of efforts in a class that is billed to grow sailing can be good for the class, events, or more importantly sailing as a whole
Articulate explanation, and I agree.

So what's the solution, not just for the 70, or KRWR, but the sport as a whole in the US?

 

Car Ramrod

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The professionalization of the sport is hurting participation. It's discouraging people from showing up because they know they just can't match the time and expense that teams put into winning even the J/70 or Cruising Division class.

And by "match" I don't even mean "to win." I mean not getting embarrassed. It's gotten to the point that professionals are so dominant and so well drilled that your average sailor just feels dumb in comparison for getting rolled out on a top mark layline by trimmers with 150 days each on the water a year or getting spit out of the fleet off the starting line after a good start by an amateur helmsman with a $2K/day salary whispering in his ear. It's discouraging. It's demoralizing. And with an event like Key West that's five figures just to show up, the bulk of sailors in the U.S. do the math and decide that they don't want to dump that money into going and getting embarassed. .

 

USA190520

Super Anarchist
Not for nothing, just because a team is scored as open that doesn't mean they're pro- I'm sure lots of Corinthians registered as open.

Nothing replaces time in the boat- for sure- and the more time spent racing equals results in any class-

The 70 series in Tampa does a good job of debriefing and q&a sessions with top boats and teams teaching and explaining technique or tactics- that's key- humbly teaching those who want to get better keeps people coming back- they don't feel "beneath" the pros or humiliated, they are somewhat connected as they learn their mistakes and are eager to get back out and try another go-

 

Car Ramrod

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Dan,

Total spitball idea here. Want to make a difference and move the needle on participation at big events? Make it less economically hurtful for the amateurs/corinthians to show up to race against pro teams.

What do I mean by that? I mean continue to require ISAF # declarations for events and have skippers make confidential declarations to race organizers or class associations regarding how they are compensating their professionals at any given regatta. In those fleets, these skippers put an amount equal to 10% of the salaries for their professional crews into an escrow account overseen by the organizers/class. The regatta/class then uses that money in a way that helps out corinthians. Either providing subsidization for corinthian housing at hotels, airfare vouchers for corinthians to fly into events, funding a youth team, covering part of the dockage for all-amateur teams, or some kind of similar kickback. Not only does this help make it easier for amateurs to go to regattas, but it helps to start bridging the "us and them" dynamic that pervades mixed fleets these days. As a bonus, if more people come to events then those are bigger fleets to win!!

To paraphrase, money in sailing is like water on pavement: it always finds a crack to get through. If skippers want to use their money to win trophies, that's their business. But we shouldn't be.

 

Crash

Super Anarchist
5,195
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SoCal
Dan,

Total spitball idea here. Want to make a difference and move the needle on participation at big events? Make it less economically hurtful for the amateurs/corinthians to show up to race against pro teams.

What do I mean by that? I mean continue to require ISAF # declarations for events and have skippers make confidential declarations to race organizers or class associations regarding how they are compensating their professionals at any given regatta. In those fleets, these skippers put an amount equal to 10% of the salaries for their professional crews into an escrow account overseen by the organizers/class. The regatta/class then uses that money in a way that helps out corinthians. Either providing subsidization for corinthian housing at hotels, airfare vouchers for corinthians to fly into events, funding a youth team, covering part of the dockage for all-amateur teams, or some kind of similar kickback. Not only does this help make it easier for amateurs to go to regattas, but it helps to start bridging the "us and them" dynamic that pervades mixed fleets these days. As a bonus, if more people come to events then those are bigger fleets to win!!

To paraphrase, money in sailing is like water on pavement: it always finds a crack to get through. If skippers want to use their money to win trophies, that's their business. But we shouldn't be.
Hell, you could make it even simpler. No pros = entry fee of .5x, 1 pro = entry fee of .85x, 2 = .95x, 3 or more = x. All money collected over .75x goes to ideas you mentioned...

 
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sunseeker

Super Anarchist
3,688
618
Dan,

Total spitball idea here. Want to make a difference and move the needle on participation at big events? Make it less economically hurtful for the amateurs/corinthians to show up to race against pro teams.

What do I mean by that? I mean continue to require ISAF # declarations for events and have skippers make confidential declarations to race organizers or class associations regarding how they are compensating their professionals at any given regatta. In those fleets, these skippers put an amount equal to 10% of the salaries for their professional crews into an escrow account overseen by the organizers/class. The regatta/class then uses that money in a way that helps out corinthians. Either providing subsidization for corinthian housing at hotels, airfare vouchers for corinthians to fly into events, funding a youth team, covering part of the dockage for all-amateur teams, or some kind of similar kickback. Not only does this help make it easier for amateurs to go to regattas, but it helps to start bridging the "us and them" dynamic that pervades mixed fleets these days. As a bonus, if more people come to events then those are bigger fleets to win!!

To paraphrase, money in sailing is like water on pavement: it always finds a crack to get through. If skippers want to use their money to win trophies, that's their business. But we shouldn't be.
Nice concept though will never work. There are far too many guys who claim to be 1's that get paid under the table. Works for both owner and sailor benefit because there's no tax reporting. Those who cheat now will just keep doing so.

 

USA190520

Super Anarchist
Dan,

Total spitball idea here. Want to make a difference and move the needle on participation at big events? Make it less economically hurtful for the amateurs/corinthians to show up to race against pro teams.

What do I mean by that? I mean continue to require ISAF # declarations for events and have skippers make confidential declarations to race organizers or class associations regarding how they are compensating their professionals at any given regatta. In those fleets, these skippers put an amount equal to 10% of the salaries for their professional crews into an escrow account overseen by the organizers/class. The regatta/class then uses that money in a way that helps out corinthians. Either providing subsidization for corinthian housing at hotels, airfare vouchers for corinthians to fly into events, funding a youth team, covering part of the dockage for all-amateur teams, or some kind of similar kickback. Not only does this help make it easier for amateurs to go to regattas, but it helps to start bridging the "us and them" dynamic that pervades mixed fleets these days. As a bonus, if more people come to events then those are bigger fleets to win!!

To paraphrase, money in sailing is like water on pavement: it always finds a crack to get through. If skippers want to use their money to win trophies, that's their business. But we shouldn't be.
Hell, you could make it even simpler. No pros = entry fee of .5x, 1 pro = entry fee of .85x, 2 = .95x, 3 or more = x. All money collected over .75x goes to ideas you mentioned...
And the cat4 tsunami would wash over the sport

 

Crash

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I thought we were down to just group 1s and group 3s????

 
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Wang

Member
464
2
detroit
Hey guys you have figured out the right boat but I am for sure not the owner Dan.

I am however lucky enough to help keep the team and boat running smoothly...I also wash the decks and trim the main but we are very lucky as Dan has not only fostered but implemented the TEAM in our team effort.

I don't know what the answer is for everyone and certainly don't pretend to know how to save sailing but I do think that we need to keep pushing to build from the grass roots up. No shame in sailing PHRF with your 1980's family hauler! Its fun to sail against a bunch of like minded folks in similar plastic pieces of shit (I enjoy mine every chance I get). We are all doing this for fun right?

I think thats where I get dissuaded about the J70 class. As we already agreed that its hard for the average guy to compete with a no budget team in any class and even though its legal doesn't it seem more reasonable to maybe pick a different platform to sail?

When I look at the current state of KWRW I look at the classes and say first WOW we are missing out on the good old PHRF classes that we have always had, the FT 7.5's seemed to work well as a combined effort with north U , the Navigators class (which I think is a awesome way to get people to enjoy sailing) the ORC class (basically phrf), J88 which seems to be a great boat for people looking for a smaller tamed down sporty boat (seems like a great boat for a lot of people)J70 (read above) the C&C 30 (great Grand Prix style racing on a quick 30 footer that have actual measurement checks, sail limits and pro limits! I can't say enough good stuff about this boat or class) J111 35 foot reasonably quick racer cruiser,1 pro, close racing and seems to bring smiles to a wide variety of people, and the TP52's which have basically morphed in small America's cup campaigns.

In all of this I personally just can't see how a 21 foot mom and pop sport boat with 3 sails should cost $90000 to do Key west. Major props to Tim Healy for keeping it simple and wining with his friends (Yes I know they are all pro's)

I actually really miss the Melges 24 class as I thought it was a great Grand Prix little boat that I think would fit the needs of some of the more competitive J70 teams that may not have the budget to sail in bigger boats like the C&C

 
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