Larry's AC50 Circus

[Forourselves]

ETNZ/LR chose a new class against the clearly expressed preferences of all the other competitors in AC36. They had every right to do so.

Teams that spent $Ms building AC50s apparently want to derive more value from their investment. They also have every right to do so. 

Absolutely. But why don't they do it the right way and win the Americas Cup back so they can have their AC50's back? All they have to do is win the Cup back, just as ETNZ did, and they get their AC50's for as long as they want them, and they even get to race the Americas Cup boats in the Americas Cup. Its spite, that's all it comes down to.

 

[Fireball]

Absolutely. But why don't they do it the right way and win the Americas Cup back so they can have their AC50's back? All they have to do is win the Cup back, just as ETNZ did, and they get their AC50's for as long as they want them, and they even get to race the Americas Cup boats in the Americas Cup. Its spite, that's all it comes down to.

Because they already have their AC50s. It's relatively easy to modify them and go sailing. Why waste time and money building this crazy new boat if they like the AC50s?

 

[Lakrass]

^ And because they don't need to. They can't call it Larry's AC50 circus, or AC anything, and they won't compete with AC audience as people attends AC events because of its name, history, the 3-4 years wait,...

But it still the best time to launch this "AC50 like" racing. If they wait until winning the cup back (if they manage to do so), they would look like going back in time and technology to something which took place 7-8 years before. In addition they would be badly hurt if this cup cycle is as spectacular and successful, AC75 would become the new fresh and impressive things, not those AC50's of the past.

Thus the best time to launch such campaign is now or in the near future, when we are still feeding of the great footage from AC36 (when we find some). It is now that they have the best reach and possible audience which could divert some from AC but I assume that most will continue following AC anyway.

 

[MischiefBDA]

Absolutely. But why don't they do it the right way and win the Americas Cup back so they can have their AC50's back? All they have to do is win the Cup back, just as ETNZ did, and they get their AC50's for as long as they want them, and they even get to race the Americas Cup boats in the Americas Cup. Its spite, that's all it comes down to.

Maybe they can't be arsed to wait until 2021

... just a fucking thought

 

[nav]

^ :lol: ..... are you so sure the AC75s wont be sailing first!?

Petulance pure and simple.

Larry and Ernesto thought their shared AC bereavement would bring them together as BFF, but no, whatever stops them from manning up for another Challenge also stops them from even working together on the Spite Cup - brought to you by in/out/in/out LV and Captain Bill's Used Boats

If Clean's gossip indicates what he thinks it does then this is probably heading to the same dump as the last 'Let's rip off the AC Regatta' attempt, the ultimately NotSoSuper 12s.

Time will tell....

 

[Team_GBR]

but they intend to use the very same equipment, (albeit modified) that the Americas Cup has used in its previous cycle, which speaks to the fact that the series is blatantly ripping off the Americas Cup while at the same time apparently providing an Alternative to it. 

Are you talking about the new series by Ellison or the 2009 LV Pacific Cup organised by ETNZ. Both fit that description.

are you so sure the AC75s wont be sailing first!?

Positive

Petulance pure and simple.

Nothing of the sort. Everybody except a few diehard ETNZ fans (and maybe ETNZ and LR) wants it t happen. The sailors certainly do and not for the money. Any fan of high speed racing should be begging for this series, as soon as possible.

If Clean's gossip indicates what he thinks it does then this is probably heading to the same dump as the last 'Let's rip off the AC Regatta' attempt, the ultimately NotSoSuper 12s.

On this one Clean is wrong. Plans are far further on than most seem to want to believe. Maybe instead of writing crap one of you fanboys should go down to Core and see exactly what they have in their workshop. You might be in for a big surprise.

 

[WetHog]

Not sure Clean is necessarily wrong.  To do a series like this the right way a mid to late 2019 start is appropriate.  Mid 2019 would make it summer in the northern hemisphere.  The sweet spot calendar wise for a series like this.

Having said that, until 5+ AC50's take the starting gun in race 1 of this series its all wishful thinking.  I"ll believe it when I see it.

WetHog   h34r:

 

[Forourselves]

Maybe they can't be arsed to wait until 2021

... just a fucking thought

The AC75's are scheduled for launch next year...2019. No doubt, at least one will be launched in that time. Once the 75's are launched, and the cycle is under way, the 50's will be forgotten. 

 

[WetHog]

The AC75's are scheduled for launch next year...2019. No doubt, at least one will be launched in that time. Once the 75's are launched, and the cycle is under way, the 50's will be forgotten. 

Why?  From what I've read the AC50's will be faster than the JC75's and more maneuverable.  5-8 AC50's ripping around a course would be pretty impressive to see.  They won't overshadow anything AC related but they won't be forgotten either.

WetHog   h34r:

 

[Forourselves]

Why?  From what I've read the AC50's will be faster than the JC75's and more maneuverable.  5-8 AC50's ripping around a course would be pretty impressive to see.  They won't overshadow anything AC related but they won't be forgotten either.

WetHog   h34r:

To be successful, the AC50's need to have capitalised on the momentum of AC35. Once the 36th cycle is underway, the momentum from Bermuda will have ceased or will be very minimal. The AC72's were IMO a lot more spectacular than the AC50's and just as fast as it turned out, but once the 34th cycle ended, the AC72's were all but forgotten, and were considered "Dinosaurs" once the AC50's were launched. The 90 footers of AC33 were amazing when they were launched and raced in Valencia, but again, once the 72's were launched they were all but forgotten as well. If the 90 footers, and the AC72's, as spectacular as they were (and they were absolutely spectacular) are forgotten so easily, a small 50 foot catamaran will suffer the same fate, especially given the fact that they are apparently going to be modified to one design. Foiling is no longer a new concept, it is no longer novel to see foiling cats zipping around a course, and there are already series that display foiling catamarans, so the 50's need to add something different. 

 

[Stingray~]

Why?  From what I've read the AC50's will be faster than the JC75's and more maneuverable.  5-8 AC50's ripping around a course would be pretty impressive to see.  They won't overshadow anything AC related but they won't be forgotten either.

WetHog   h34r:

Correct, they won’t overshadow the AC in the sense of massive crowds, broadcasts, attention, history, all of that.

But for those of us who love the extreme edge of course-racer boatspeed that Ellison’s AC era ultimately produced, it will be terrific if these boats reach yet another level of performance. The suggestion it is being delayed into ‘19 may be a sign of even bigger ambitions on that front than the original notion.

 

[nav]

More time for them to push their BS Alternative America's Cup narrative on other gullible 'pimp my town' mayors I guess. Might even work - unless it's the General Dr involved again :lol:

 

[MischiefBDA]

The AC75's are scheduled for launch next year...2019. No doubt, at least one will be launched in that time. Once the 75's are launched, and the cycle is under way, the 50's will be forgotten. 

Wow, you really are a real hater ....it's comical, clearly obsessed ... and desperate for it not to succeed aren't you?
 

 

[Tornado-Cat]

Correct, they won’t overshadow the AC in the sense of massive crowds, broadcasts, attention, history, all of that.

They won't overshadow the AC in the sense of history, but they could about massive crowds.

 

[Stingray~]

They won't overshadow the AC in the sense of history, but they could about massive crowds.

The biggest ACWS crowd ever was in Naples, an event LR won, it was pretty cool.

This new series could also attract local interest in nice locales on beautiful weekends but: Crowds are likely not a big factor behind why the AC50 NextGen series is getting funded by infinite-money LE and whoever else. It has to be all about a passion for pressing the limits in sailing performance.

Those seeing ‘spite’ as motive are surely small-minded spiteful people themselves.

$B’s don’t waste their fun-money on silly shit like malice. They do it mostly just for fun - and good on them no matter the yachting style, J’s or otherwise. These boats will very likely be extremely hot!

 

[Forourselves]

Wow, you really are a real hater ....it's comical, clearly obsessed ... and desperate for it not to succeed aren't you?
 

Not a Hater, but you're right, I don't want it to succeed, but my reasons are absolutely logical, unlike the arguments for the series.

Because if it goes ahead:

1) its a series born of spite

2) Because its piggybacking the Americas Cup, using Americas Cup technology, and boats built for the express purpose of competing in the Americas Cup, so should remain an Americas Cup Class.

3) The AC50's should not be "watered down" to become mediocre one design racers. No other class has been able to successfully make a box rule class yacht better/ faster while at the same time making it one design.

4) This a personal one: because all of the hate ETNZ/ LR got from the "Haters" regarding "not toeing the company line" and being "Argumentative" and "Going against the majority" The one thing they did do, despite all the attempts by Oracle and its organising Committee to weaken the NZ Team, is continue to contest the AC and win it to get what they wanted. Now the shoe is on the other foot, and after all the (Hollow) talk of "Sustainability" and signing a Framework that would ensure "Sustainability" instead of challenging to win it back, it's ok to lose, quit, and take your ball and go home? and instead throw a few hundred million at an alternative series using Americas Cup Class Boats? 

5) Because Foiling Catamarans aren't a new, and novel thing any more. There are many foiling catamarans/ Multihull series currently being competed in. Even the Olympics are foiling now.

6) You say Billionaires aren't stupid...well it seems they are if they decide to fund this series, because there is no return on their investment. 

 

[A Class Sailor]

What a crock of shit

Not a Hater Yes you are  but you're right, I don't want it to succeed, but my reasons are absolutely logical, No they aren't unlike the arguments for the series.

Because if it goes ahead:

1) its a series born of spite Wrong.You really aren't up on sailing history. A series like this was first proposed by Coutts back in 2007. Now he has the opportunity to do it. Artemis is also a major mover in the series because they love the boats. Why would TT be acting out of spite?

2) Because its piggybacking the Americas Cup, using Americas Cup technology, and boats built for the express purpose of competing in the Americas Cup, so should remain an Americas Cup Class. You expect people to simply pack up old AC boats and never use them again? That's stupid. Old AC boats have been used after their time in the AC since the dawn of time. Why is this different? Also, the technology is not owned by the AC. Teams created it. Oracle created the rule.

3) The AC50's should not be "watered down" to become mediocre one design racers. No other class has been able to successfully make a box rule class yacht better/ faster while at the same time making it one design. It's not being watered down. Exactly the opposite, from what I have heard. They might be one design, but they are being turbo charged. They will be significantly faster than the fastest at the AC.

4) This a personal one: because all of the hate ETNZ/ LR got from the "Haters" regarding "not toeing the company line" and being "Argumentative" and "Going against the majority" The one thing they did do, despite all the attempts by Oracle and its organising Committee to weaken the NZ Team, is continue to contest the AC and win it to get what they wanted. Now the shoe is on the other foot, it's ok to lose, quit, and take your ball and go home? You seem to think that once a wealthy owner has been involved with the AC, that's all they should do. There is life after the AC. This series is so different from anything to do with the AC. The AC is a design competition. The fastest boat wins. It is that simple. The challenge is how a team works together to build a faster boat than everybody else. this series is about finding out which team are the best sailors by pitting them against each other in equal boats.

5) Because Foiling Catamarans aren't a new, and novel thing any more. There are many foiling catamarans/ Multihull series currently being competed in. Even the Olympics are foiling now. So what? There is no other foiling cat that can sail around a course on foils 100% of the time. The olympic foiling cat is a dog. Even the best foiling series at the moment, the GC32's, look boring and pedestrian compared with the AC50's. If you really think that the AC50 series would be like any other racing, it proves how clueless you are.

6) You say Billionaires aren't stupid...well it seems they are if they decide to fund this series, because there is no return on their investment. Possibly the single most stupid statement from you. What return do they get from any series? Nobody has ever got a return out of the AC. Larry has spent over $500m on the cup. How much do you think TT spent on Artemsi over 2 cycles? Whjere was the return for them, or for most other super rich AC backers? You could argue that the best a team has ever done is break even, as in the case of teams that are and need to be fully sponsored such as ETNZ. There is no return on investment from the AC, or any other type of sailing.

The costs of this series is going to be small change for the wealthy guys owning the teams. It will be a fraction of the cost of an AC campaign. It gives a purpose for boats that would otherwise sit around doing nothing and it gives jobs to sailors who have become personal friends of some of the team owners.For an owner what's not to like? Relatively affordable racing in the fastest, most spectacular racing boats in existence with a group of sailors you consider friends.

 

[Kiwing]

^ just should not be called  AC anything.  Otherwise they are piggy backing!

oops wasn't going to post on this thread!

 

[Forourselves]

What a crock of shit

The costs of this series is going to be small change for the wealthy guys owning the teams. It will be a fraction of the cost of an AC campaign. It gives a purpose for boats that would otherwise sit around doing nothing and it gives jobs to sailors who have become personal friends of some of the team owners.For an owner what's not to like? Relatively affordable racing in the fastest, most spectacular racing boats in existence with a group of sailors you consider friends.

1) Torbjorn Tornquist has had a history of disappointing challenges in the AC, the first was a disaster, and the second was a disappointing challenge with a history of under achieving.

TT may "love the boats" but he's never been able to master any of them, his AC72, AC45F and the AC50 campaigns all proved to be disappointing, under achieving campaigns.

2) Do I expect people to simply pack up old AC boats? Yes, its the nature of the Americas Cup. You win, you decide what happens next, Its whats happened with every cycle in recent history, OR win the cup, so you don't need to pack them up! Everyone else has done it, so they should too. All they have to do is WIN so that they don't need to pack them up! Just as ETNZ have done! 

Turbo charged? According to who? I'll believe it when I see it, because no class has been able to turbo charge any One design concept. Turbo charge often means Big budget.

"This series is so different from anything to do with the AC" Except they're using AC Class Boats (Albeit modified).

"this series is about finding out which team are the best sailors by pitting them against each other in equal boats" So is the GC32, the MC32, the TP52, and the RC44. There is one team who is "the best" in an AC50 Class, and they have the silverware to prove it.

 

[A Class Sailor]

Turbo charged? According to who? I'll believe it when I see it, because no class has been able to turbo charge any One design concept. Turbo charge often means Big budget.

I seem to remember they did pretty well turbo charging the AC45's. There are other examples of classes turbo charging one designs. The Tornado did a pretty good job of it. Nacra have done it. The Flying Phantom is a turbo charged F18. The list is long. Stop talking shit!

It's also pretty easy to make the AC50's go faster, for 2 reasons. The first is that if you are making them all the same, you don't need to worry about the original AC50 rule for the foils. That makes a huge difference.  Then there will be an automated flight control system so that the sailors don't need to try to match the numbers like ETNZ did. Instead of giving a target for the settings, they will simply happen. The other thing is that they now know what works and what doesn't. If you think they cannot unpackage what we saw on the ETNZ boat and improve on it, particularly with the removal of rule limitations, it is yet more evidence you don't understand boats.

As for budget, what is needed to make these boats faster (turbo charged) is different foils and foil systems. The biggest cost of new foils is in the R&D and then making the tooling. Spread that over the fleet and it becomes significantly cheaper. Same with the control system, although now they have a pretty good idea of what they are doing. 

You make it sound hard and expensive. If you spend the same amount as an AC team on foil and foil control development, spread that over say 5 teams. This doies not need a full AC design team working for the whole AC cycle. It is a small subset team (say 4-5) working for 6-9 months and then it is over to the boatbuilders. It really isn't a big bill and it is more than affordable for these guys to end up with the fastest raceboats. Even if they each threw $5m into the pot ($25m in total) which is pocket change when you are that wealthy, you would give you a bigger development budget for those items than any AC team had last time.