Larry's AC50 Circus

agk470

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It was widely known, even in Bermuda, that ETNZ team members took hefty pay cuts to continue being employed at ETNZ. It was also stated that immediately after the AC, Dalton could not pay salaries, and had to sell some of the team assets to be able to pay salaries. Not sure what relevance this has moving forward apart from the fact it might work against TNZ as they are an employer that seems to change their contracts to suit their own business model and everyone else must fall into line, dictatorship much?(easy its a bit of a joke champ)  maybe Pete and Blair, or anyone within the team, theres a point where doing it for country doesnt pay the mortgage, will want to have their contracts honoured like any normal bloke or woman would?

Pete will stay at Team NZ whether Ellison offers him double or not. If for no other reason that he is still a member of the NZ Sailing team for the Tokyo Olympics. No doubt Dalton will offer him the skipper role, which by all accounts Glenn Ashby is fine with.  Not sure why you think unless i dont know of a rule why they couldnt be olympic team members and sail for another team other than team NZ.  

They already can join an awesome world circuit. Its called the GC32 Class. agreed its a bloody great class and going well but not in the same league as the 50's, i can sail a GC around but could barely keep the 45T on the foils

When it comes to guys like Pete and Blair, competing against the best in the world, to be the best in the world is what is appealing. And the top of the world for those guys is the Olympics, and the Americas Cup. They aren't going anywhere. You have to be joking if you think those guys are going to give up sailing for New Zealand at the highest level of their sport for some second rate B-grade pretend Americas Cup regatta. OK so this is stretching it even for a die hard fanboy. Who do you rate as best in the world, what athletes? im genuinely interested to know,  and why would they be giving up sailing for NZ at the highest level? they still are NZ citizens so are eligible for games, they raced for Holland and Spain in the VOR right?  Is the volvo not the highest level in that part of the sport?  

Didnt a very good famous kiwi leave TNZ and is now arguably the most successful Americas cup sailor of our era? he won all the type of things Pete and Blair have and left to continue to be a great sailor, these guys dont have to stay in NZ to be great sailors, they have proved this over and over maybe now they will want to cash in on it.

Maybe they will do the cup,  but maybe they will do the 50's sailing amongst a young talented group and have fun racing one design bloody fast boats that they were very happy sailing in bermuda. and earn good freight whilst doing it. 

Im totally over you thinking that guys who lost the cup are walking away, a huge amount of time has been spent by those guys trying to get cash to enter and win the cup, they all love it, If they cannot get the funding then what are they supposed to not sail boats they like. If LE called you and said ,hey chump heres X amount come sail the boats on me,we'll look after everything you find your own title sponsor and come sail 40+ knots for shit and giggles,  you'd say no?  your bloody dreaming son. 

I know you pick one or 2 points and dribble on about that and leave all the other point that you cant dispute out so im sure that will keep happening, I just would love for you to step away a little from the line you will not cross and see that its not all doom and gloom over here, actually its pretty bloody good to embrace all aspects of sailing. you should try it, who knows you may even like it. 



 

Forourselves

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^^ This is what I say to that... You guys have no understanding of how NZ Sport works. Its like playing for the All Blacks. The vast majority of guys who play rugby can earn twice, sometimes 3 times or more the amount they earn playing for the All Blacks by playing overseas, France for example, but playing for NZ, representing the All Blacks and wearing the fern on your chest is what is appealing to these guys. They could go overseas and earn million dollar paychecks, but they don't, they stay here and play for the All Blacks. Its not about money, its about wearing the fern and representing NZ. It may sound like a cliche, but its true. This is what a lot of people who don't live in NZ fail to understand. 

 
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kawalski

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^^ This is what I say to that... You guys have no understanding of how NZ Sport works. Its like playing for the All Blacks. The vast majority of guys who play rugby can earn twice, sometimes 3 times or more the amount they earn playing for the All Blacks by playing overseas, France for example, but playing for NZ, representing the All Blacks and wearing the fern on your chest is what is appealing to these guys. They could go overseas and earn million dollar paychecks, but they don't, they stay here and play for the All Blacks. Its not about money, its about wearing the fern and representing NZ. It may sound like a cliche, but its true. This is what a lot of people who don't live in NZ fail to understand. 
A lot of All Blacks play over seas mate

 

agk470

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^^ This is what I say to that... You guys have no understanding of how NZ Sport works. Its like playing for the All Blacks. The vast majority of guys who play rugby can earn twice, sometimes 3 times or more the amount they earn playing for the All Blacks by playing overseas, France for example, but playing for NZ, representing the All Blacks and wearing the fern on your chest is what is appealing to these guys. They could go overseas and earn million dollar paychecks, but they don't, they stay here and play for the All Blacks. Its not about money, its about wearing the fern and representing NZ. It may sound like a cliche, but its true. This is what a lot of people who don't live in NZ fail to understand. 
But the guys playing for the all blacks and super rugby teams are getting paid quite adequately. So your comparing apples to oranges. They can earn a great living playing super rugby then the bonus is the all blacks. No one plays only all blacks. Agreed national pride is very strong there as it should be. 

How many any of those rugby guys do you think would hang around if there only paycheck was the few tests a year and the World Cup year? And in that year the all blacks asked them to play for less? How many would be able to afford to live? To setup for a future? get a home loan?  Have enough job security  to start a family etc? 

Not a balanced argument really. 

The super rugby is one of the best comps to play in but a lot have to leave to set themselves up. 

 

Forourselves

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But the guys playing for the all blacks and super rugby teams are getting paid quite adequately. So your comparing apples to oranges. They can earn a great living playing super rugby then the bonus is the all blacks. No one plays only all blacks. Agreed national pride is very strong there as it should be. 

How many any of those rugby guys do you think would hang around if there only paycheck was the few tests a year and the World Cup year? And in that year the all blacks asked them to play for less? How many would be able to afford to live? To setup for a future? get a home loan?  Have enough job security  to start a family etc? 

Not a balanced argument really. 

The super rugby is one of the best comps to play in but a lot have to leave to set themselves up. 
Agreed. But even Super Rugby doesn't pay as handsomely as Toulon, Perpignan or Racing 92. The big money is overseas. They either choose the Black jersey or the money. Most choose the jersey, some choose the money.

The majority of Kiwi's who play overseas are either former All Blacks, or players who never got an All Black jersey but are still good enough to earn a decent pay check

 

Stingray~

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If Ellison is going to invest into this series roughly the size of his past AC campaigns or more, well then there’s a decent chance that with ‘Oracle’ for his team name he will have told RC to create a top-talent team. 

I think it was Burling himself who tweeted that photo, of himself having lunch with RC in New Zealand? Maybe guys can sail both series if they are under different team names?

 
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rh3000

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If Ellison is going to invest into this series roughly the size of his past AC campaigns or more, well then there’s a decent chance that with ‘Oracle’ for his team name he will have told RC to create a top-talent team. 

I think it was Burling himself who tweeted that photo, of himself having lunch with RC in New Zealand? Maybe guys can sail both series if they are under different team names?
two Kiwis have lunch together and all of a sudden its a conspiracy thanks to LE's $$$... in our neck of the woods mate it means nothing other than there was a good pie around the corner and a couple of guys were peckish...

The difference between our two nations continues to be in stark illumination in some of the comments on this board... for some the answers are found in egos, money, billionaires and for others its about simply having a good sail, getting a fair crack at the wicket, everyone's bank account being the list interesting thing to measure... worlds apart we are...worlds apart.

 

Indio

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A lot of All Blacks play over seas mate
After playing their best years for the All Blacks, mate! The ones who take the money in the NH are either at the end of their careers, or have been informed that they will not make it. Piutau took the money, but even if he was eligible for selection, he would struggle to get on the bench. Brad Shields would have been selected for the All Blacks 4-5 years ago, but his skill set and game are just not dynamic enough for the All Blacks, so he's off to Wasps and England. He would never have made the All Blacks.

Julian Savea has signed for Toulon at age 28 - there is no way he would get into the All Blacks ahead of Rieko Ioane. The Hurricanes even tried to help him by playing him on the right wing to give him an opyion, but we have big fast young wingers queuing up!

 

rh3000

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After playing their best years for the All Blacks, mate! The ones who take the money in the NH are either at the end of their careers, or have been informed that they will not make it. Piutau took the money, but even if he was eligible for selection, he would struggle to get on the bench. Brad Shields would have been selected for the All Blacks 4-5 years ago, but his skill set and game are just not dynamic enough for the All Blacks, so he's off to Wasps and England. He would never have made the All Blacks.

Julian Savea has signed for Toulon at age 28 - there is no way he would get into the All Blacks ahead of Rieko Ioane. The Hurricanes even tried to help him by playing him on the right wing to give him an opyion, but we have big fast young wingers queuing up!
Some just don't get it mate... they can barely understand why someone would want to play for love of victory over and above the love of money - let alone consider that the lack of focus on money, and instead the love of the contest and sport is what makes the ABs (and to a similar extent ETNZ) get the results they do...

 

agk470

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^^ This is what I say to that... You guys have no understanding of how NZ Sport works. Its like playing for the All Blacks. The vast majority of guys who play rugby can earn twice, sometimes 3 times or more the amount they earn playing for the All Blacks by playing overseas, France for example, but playing for NZ, representing the All Blacks and wearing the fern on your chest is what is appealing to these guys. They could go overseas and earn million dollar paychecks, but they don't, they stay here and play for the All Blacks. Its not about money, its about wearing the fern and representing NZ. It may sound like a cliche, but its true. This is what a lot of people who don't live in NZ fail to understand. 
Ok so back to this. Let’s put $$$ aside it’s obvious I won’t get you guys to see the other side here. And I 100% see your point. NZ isn’t the only place where this happens by the way. Over here in Aussie land isn’t that dissimilar  

Answers to the other parts of my reply? Again you honed In on one part then have gone off on a tangent. 

Care to comment on the other points? 

 

Forourselves

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Ok so back to this. Let’s put $$$ aside it’s obvious I won’t get you guys to see the other side here. And I 100% see your point. NZ isn’t the only place where this happens by the way. Over here in Aussie land isn’t that dissimilar  

Answers to the other parts of my reply? Again you honed In on one part then have gone off on a tangent. 

Care to comment on the other points? 
It was widely known, even in Bermuda, that ETNZ team members took hefty pay cuts to continue being employed at ETNZ. It was also stated that immediately after the AC, Dalton could not pay salaries, and had to sell some of the team assets to be able to pay salaries.

Not sure what relevance this has moving forward apart from the fact it might work against TNZ as they are an employer that seems to change their contracts to suit their own business model and everyone else must fall into line, dictatorship much?(easy its a bit of a joke champ)  maybe Pete and Blair, or anyone within the team, theres a point where doing it for country doesnt pay the mortgage, will want to have their contracts honoured like any normal bloke or woman would?

The relevance is, for a lot of Kiwi sportsmen, its not about the money. Its about wearing the fern, and representing your country

Pete will stay at Team NZ whether Ellison offers him double or not. If for no other reason that he is still a member of the NZ Sailing team for the Tokyo Olympics. No doubt Dalton will offer him the skipper role, which by all accounts Glenn Ashby is fine with.  Not sure why you think unless i dont know of a rule why they couldnt be olympic team members and sail for another team other than team NZ.  

They already can join an awesome world circuit. Its called the GC32 Class.

agreed its a bloody great class and going well but not in the same league as the 50's, i can sail a GC around but could barely keep the 45T on the foils.

There are a lot of professional sailors that compete on the GC32 circuit. And they all struggle to keep the boat on its foils with any stability. In the AC we saw the better teams being able to keep their boats on the foils close to 100% of the time. I'm not sure if any of the teams have completed a dry lap on the GC32's yet, and this class has been around since 2012.

I SERIOUSLY DOUBT that you could sail a GC32 around.

When it comes to guys like Pete and Blair, competing against the best in the world, to be the best in the world is what is appealing. And the top of the world for those guys is the Olympics, and the Americas Cup. They aren't going anywhere. You have to be joking if you think those guys are going to give up sailing for New Zealand at the highest level of their sport for some second rate B-grade pretend Americas Cup regatta.

OK so this is stretching it even for a die hard fanboy. Who do you rate as best in the world, what athletes? im genuinely interested to know,  and why would they be giving up sailing for NZ at the highest level? they still are NZ citizens so are eligible for games, they raced for Holland and Spain in the VOR right?  Is the volvo not the highest level in that part of the sport? 

Who do I rate as the best in the world? The guy who has an Olympic Gold medal, an Americas Cup win, a consistent winning record, or an ability to stay in the top 10 of every class he's ever competed in. The protocol prohibits "Competitors" - a key word - from acquiring, sailing or testing any yacht exceeding 15 meters except for the TP52. This would prohibit any AC sailors from competing IMO. If they choose the F50 series, they would be giving up the AC, which is HIGHLY unlikely.

Didnt a very good famous kiwi leave TNZ and is now arguably the most successful Americas cup sailor of our era? he won all the type of things Pete and Blair have and left to continue to be a great sailor, these guys dont have to stay in NZ to be great sailors, they have proved this over and over maybe now they will want to cash in on it.

Yes, Coutts left NZ because he didn't get his way, and yes, he is one of the greatest Americas Cup sailors of all time, no one denies that. But Burling would surely be up there with him.

Maybe they will do the cup,  but maybe they will do the 50's sailing amongst a young talented group and have fun racing one design bloody fast boats that they were very happy sailing in bermuda. and earn good freight whilst doing it. 

Like I said, the wording of the protocol seems to prevent competitors from doing both. If they choose the new 50 series, they give up the AC. Barker, Spithill, Ainslie, Jensen, Burling and Tuke have committed to the AC, as Dalton stated, all sailing tem members from Bermuda have committed, its just the roles that are yet to be determined. Whether a series can be successful without the worlds best sailors or the worlds fastest boats remains to be seen.

Im totally over you thinking that guys who lost the cup are walking away, a huge amount of time has been spent by those guys trying to get cash to enter and win the cup, they all love it, If they cannot get the funding then what are they supposed to not sail boats they like. If LE called you and said ,hey chump heres X amount come sail the boats on me,we'll look after everything you find your own title sponsor and come sail 40+ knots for shit and giggles,  you'd say no?  your bloody dreaming son. 

I used to play Rugby. My goal as a kid was to be an All Black. If I was a current All Black in my prime, or even looking at being selected for the AB's, and Toulon offered me a contract for millions, Hell no. Being an All Black means more than anything else, as does representing your country when you're a high profile NZ sportsman. If ETNZ had entered the VOR I'm sure we would have seen Burling and Tuke sailing for New Zealand. 

I know you pick one or 2 points and dribble on about that and leave all the other point that you cant dispute out so im sure that will keep happening, I just would love for you to step away a little from the line you will not cross and see that its not all doom and gloom over here, actually its pretty bloody good to embrace all aspects of sailing. you should try it, who knows you may even like it. 

If You truly embrace "All aspects of sailing" you would surely "embrace" the direction of the AC that Dalton and Bertelli have taken 

 
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dogwatch

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Like I said, the wording of the protocol seems to prevent competitors from doing both. If they choose the new 50 series, they give up the AC. Barker, Spithill, Ainslie, Jensen, Burling and Tuke have committed to the AC, as Dalton stated, all sailing tem members from Bermuda have committed, its just the roles that are yet to be determined. Whether a series can be successful without the worlds best sailors or the worlds fastest boats remains to be seen.


That is plain wrong. "Competitor" is a defined term in Protocol 1.4 and means "team". It does not mean "sailor". Nothing in the protocol prevents a sailor from competing in another series.

As far as teams go, 34.3 prevents or may prevent competing in an "ambush regatta". It is hard to see how an event that doesn't use AC boats, AC images or AC terminology and where most of the teams are not involved in the AC could be argued to be an "ambush". I am not expecting AC teams to join Larry's circus but that's not because they cannot, it is because it would form a significant diversion of treasure and effort.

 
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agk470

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It was widely known, even in Bermuda, that ETNZ team members took hefty pay cuts to continue being employed at ETNZ. It was also stated that immediately after the AC, Dalton could not pay salaries, and had to sell some of the team assets to be able to pay salaries.

Not sure what relevance this has moving forward apart from the fact it might work against TNZ as they are an employer that seems to change their contracts to suit their own business model and everyone else must fall into line, dictatorship much?(easy its a bit of a joke champ)  maybe Pete and Blair, or anyone within the team, theres a point where doing it for country doesnt pay the mortgage, will want to have their contracts honoured like any normal bloke or woman would?

The relevance is, for a lot of Kiwi sportsmen, its not about the money. Its about wearing the fern, and representing your country

do they not wear the fern at the olympics?

Pete will stay at Team NZ whether Ellison offers him double or not. If for no other reason that he is still a member of the NZ Sailing team for the Tokyo Olympics. No doubt Dalton will offer him the skipper role, which by all accounts Glenn Ashby is fine with.  Not sure why you think unless i dont know of a rule why they couldnt be olympic team members and sail for another team other than team NZ.  

??

They already can join an awesome world circuit. Its called the GC32 Class.

agreed its a bloody great class and going well but not in the same league as the 50's, i can sail a GC around but could barely keep the 45T on the foils.

There are a lot of professional sailors that compete on the GC32 circuit. And they all struggle to keep the boat on its foils with any stability. In the AC we saw the better teams being able to keep their boats on the foils close to 100% of the time. I'm not sure if any of the teams have completed a dry lap on the GC32's yet, and this class has been around since 2012.

Is this really your argument? a boat that uses a mechanically driven foil(ropes on a drum)  as opposed to a boat that uses hydraulic rams to control rake, a boat that uses top handles on a main sheet winch as opposed to one that links 4 grinders or cyclors, a boat that has hydraulic rudder rake control on the steering wheel as opposed to one that uses a belt driven drum system, one boat that has hydraulic DB up/down as opposed to one that takes 2 men a lifetime to raise and lower. one boat that has a wing that can be manipulated at real time to reduce power or create power, one uses a soft sail that has minimal and slow control. do i need to go on? really not a great argument there.  

I SERIOUSLY DOUBT that you could sail a GC32 around.

You can doubt all you want Ive done quite alot of 32 stuff and yes can get them up and going plenty fine. absolutely cannot foil them 100% as you said thats near on impossible

When it comes to guys like Pete and Blair, competing against the best in the world, to be the best in the world is what is appealing. And the top of the world for those guys is the Olympics, and the Americas Cup. They aren't going anywhere. You have to be joking if you think those guys are going to give up sailing for New Zealand at the highest level of their sport for some second rate B-grade pretend Americas Cup regatta.

OK so this is stretching it even for a die hard fanboy. Who do you rate as best in the world, what athletes? im genuinely interested to know,  and why would they be giving up sailing for NZ at the highest level? they still are NZ citizens so are eligible for games, they raced for Holland and Spain in the VOR right?  Is the volvo not the highest level in that part of the sport? 

Who do I rate as the best in the world? The guy who has an Olympic Gold medal, an Americas Cup win, a consistent winning record, or an ability to stay in the top 10 of every class he's ever competed in. The protocol prohibits "Competitors" - a key word - from acquiring, sailing or testing any yacht exceeding 15 meters except for the TP52. This would prohibit any AC sailors from competing IMO. If they choose the F50 series, they would be giving up the AC, which is HIGHLY unlikely.

firstly GUYS, theres 2 of them dont forget the other genious on all those boats. he beat Pete in the 2014 A-Cat worlds in NZ. Sorry I meant Sailors, who are the best sailors in the world in your opinion. I tend to agree that if they choose the F50 they will be leaving their chance at the AC but maybe thats the challenge they want? Whats say they have a NZ team in the 50? would the lads not have the fern on their chest then?

Didnt a very good famous kiwi leave TNZ and is now arguably the most successful Americas cup sailor of our era? he won all the type of things Pete and Blair have and left to continue to be a great sailor, these guys dont have to stay in NZ to be great sailors, they have proved this over and over maybe now they will want to cash in on it.

Yes, Coutts left NZ because he didn't get his way, and yes, he is one of the greatest Americas Cup sailors of all time, no one denies that. But Burling would surely be up there with him. 

I dont doubt pete would be able to Race with him and possibly/probably beat him its not about that, And if you actually are in any position to have a chat with russell its a fair different story to the one the media has, but thats always the way.   

Maybe they will do the cup,  but maybe they will do the 50's sailing amongst a young talented group and have fun racing one design bloody fast boats that they were very happy sailing in bermuda. and earn good freight whilst doing it. 

Like I said, the wording of the protocol seems to prevent competitors from doing both. If they choose the new 50 series, they give up the AC. Barker, Spithill, Ainslie, Jensen, Burling and Tuke have committed to the AC, as Dalton stated, all sailing tem members from Bermuda have committed, its just the roles that are yet to be determined.Again have Pete and Blair signed? all the others there have been press releases of signings but not for the kiwi duo? Whether a series can be successful without the worlds best sailors or the worlds fastest boats remains to be seen. depending what you think are the best sailors in the world? you say a "Who do I rate as the best in the world? The guy who has an Olympic Gold medal, an Americas Cup win, a consistent winning record, or an ability to stay in the top 10 of every class he's ever competed in." sounds like slingsby and ben, and i'll wait to see who else you think are the best sailors in the world. worlds fastest boats? time will tell what boats they are. 

Im totally over you thinking that guys who lost the cup are walking away, a huge amount of time has been spent by those guys trying to get cash to enter and win the cup, they all love it, If they cannot get the funding then what are they supposed to not sail boats they like. If LE called you and said ,hey chump heres X amount come sail the boats on me,we'll look after everything you find your own title sponsor and come sail 40+ knots for shit and giggles,  you'd say no?  your bloody dreaming son. 

I used to play Rugby. My goal as a kid was to be an All Black. If I was a current All Black in my prime, or even looking at being selected for the AB's, and Toulon offered me a contract for millions, Hell no. Being an All Black means more than anything else, as does representing your country when you're a high profile NZ sportsman. If ETNZ had entered the VOR I'm sure we would have seen Burling and Tuke sailing for New Zealand.  Pete and Blair do represent their country at an olympics level, and have with ETNZ, they might again.  

I know you pick one or 2 points and dribble on about that and leave all the other point that you cant dispute out so im sure that will keep happening, I just would love for you to step away a little from the line you will not cross and see that its not all doom and gloom over here, actually its pretty bloody good to embrace all aspects of sailing. you should try it, who knows you may even like it. 

If You truly embrace "All aspects of sailing" you would surely "embrace" the direction of the AC that Dalton and Bertelli have taken 

Mate i'm pumped for the AC, I got half a mongrel when i saw the boat Ineos have just pulled out of the shed. Bloody awesome. It is and will be such a great time for sailing and engineering within our sport. cannot wait to see one sailing. 

 

Stingray~

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That is plain wrong. "Competitor" is a defined term in Protocol 1.4 and means "team". It does not mean "sailor". Nothing in the protocol prevents a sailor from competing in another series.

As far as teams go, 34.3 prevents or may prevent competing in an "ambush regatta". It is hard to see how an event that doesn't use AC boats, AC images or AC terminology and where most of the teams are not involved in the AC could be argued to be an "ambush". I am not expecting AC teams to join Larry's circus but that's not because they cannot, it is because it would form a significant diversion of treasure and effort.
Agree.

Someone here asked an ETNZ team person about the proposed circuit and they said the one reason they wouldn’t sign on was simply because it would be a diversion of effort.

 
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Stingray~

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I emailed the team and got a response from them saying No, they won't be involved.
Someone else did too and posted the response they received, which included the need to focus on the AC Defense and included nothing at all about teams or sailors being precluded from participating for any other reason.

I could see (as just one AC36 team-sailor example) Burling getting paid well to crew on some other team-entry, a few times a year, just like what Ashby did recently for a Swiss GC32 team. Hard to imagine ETNZ denying someone that opportunity unless the event was simultaneously during AC75 work-up or ACWS event days.

 
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NotSoFast

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The protocol prohibits "Competitors" - a key word - from acquiring, sailing or testing any yacht exceeding 15 meters except for the TP52. This would prohibit any AC sailors from competing IMO. If they choose the F50 series, they would be giving up the AC, which is HIGHLY unlikely. 
VOR65 is not TP52 and it is longer than 15 meters. Therefore according to your claim above, Blair and Tuke are not allowed to sail in next AC, as they both have been sailing in a boat exceeding 15 meters which was not a TP52. That would mean they can just as well sail F50 series rather than not sail at all.

In reality it means you claim is wrong.

 

Forourselves

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VOR65 is not TP52 and it is longer than 15 meters. Therefore according to your claim above, Blair and Tuke are not allowed to sail in next AC, as they both have been sailing in a boat exceeding 15 meters which was not a TP52. That would mean they can just as well sail F50 series rather than not sail at all.

In reality it means you claim is wrong.
But then again, the entry period has not closed yet, so entries are not officially accepted, and teams aren't officially entered until after the entry period closes. The Volvo has officially finished. The Cycle doesn't officially start until at least after the first entry period has ended which is June 30th (Saturday), and after the second period ends November 30th, so my claim is not wrong. Teams don't have to be final until November 30th.

 
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