Larry's AC50 Circus

Potter

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To those who say the F50 event will be full of nobody's, I have been told of some of the team leaders for the series and that makes it a strong series. Those team leaders are Tom Slingsby, Nathan Outeridge, Ian Percy, Franck Cammas and Chris Draper. All are experienced America's Cup sailors with lots of F50 experience and a whole host of Olympic medals as well. There's a pretty good case to be made that this is as an impressive group as we are seeing with the AC.

I also heard that the teams are being called by their countries, although I don't know how that will work because Percy (British) is with Artemis (Swedish) and Outeridge is managing a non Australian team. I guess its like ETNZ having an Australian skipper, the Italians having Jimmy Spithill and Ineos having an Australian CEO and a NZ head designer and NZ sailing team manager.
Probably not Frank, more likely to be Billy Besson.

 

Potter

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Read the protocol, residency time is important. Sailors taking up residency or citizenship is not at all new. Charlie Barr, who defended the Auld Mug 3 times for the USA was born in  Gourock, Scotland and his early career was as a fisherman in Scotland before helping his brother deliver a yacht to America. Even Wikipedia bills him as an "American yacht racer" - bloody cheek. You can take a Scot out of Scotland but you cannot take Scotland out of the Scot".

Altering residency/nationality rules to suit themselves does not necessarily 'set the bar high', it just skews the bar in their favour.

I do agree it is a pinnacle event but a very expensive pinnacle event with GBP110m budget for the Brits while Dalts is claiming you can be competitive for Euro 40m. One of them has got it wrong.

To put the INEOS budget in true perspective that is around 12 Volvo Ocean Race campaigns. Even Dalton's cost estimate is enough to send 3 Volvo teams around the world in a VO65. In an IMOCA? perhaps 1.5-2 teams.

If you don't believe me - check yourself.

Just sayin'

SS
That has pretty much always been the case though, especially if you choose the cheapest Volvo Teams and the most expensive AC team.  

Even when Groupama was spending a fortune on the VOR the AC was still more expensive.

 

shanghaisailor

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That has pretty much always been the case though, especially if you choose the cheapest Volvo Teams and the most expensive AC team.  

Even when Groupama was spending a fortune on the VOR the AC was still more expensive.
So true Potter, even comparing a cheap AC campaign (Euro40m according to Grant Dalton) to a fully funded team from the last VOR you could run 2 teams full on in the VOR for 1 cheap team in the AC. And by full on I don't just mean in competitive terms but also in the media activation and return to the sponsors, in other words value for their money.

That fact makes me wonder how VOR can only sell the deal to so few sponsors. I mean 9 months of dramatic coverage, in ports, heli-shots, human drama, drones, 2m people watching the Hague finish alone, 9 months and 11 B2B opportunities at stopover ports with a reported cumulative 100,000 corporate visitors and it was tough getting 7 teams to the start line.

In cold figures alone the VOR has to be greater value for a sponsor than AC so, if VOR struggle to get their numbers with their spend level, it should be no surprise that the AC only has 3 teams challenging or that can afford to challenge with a Euro100m (and above) budget to be truly competitive.

Let's not forget it doesn't matter how keen someone is to compete in an event, if there isn't the funding it isn't going to happen.

Plus with the AC you win or lose, perhaps in round 1 so the sponsor wins or loses, too big a risk for most marketing departments. At least with the VOR there are 11 opportunities for (sponsors) glory. Almost every team stood on the top step of the podium in the last race and TTOP had an incredible message that has certainly reverberated round the sailing world giving each team and their sponsors a grab of the spotlight.

I believe it all about bang for the buck and an AC sponsorship must be one hell of a hard thing to sell.

The other thing one needs to remember is that the AC has ALWAYS been a rich man's game and only recently involved sponsors and governments (NZL) while the Whitbread/Volvo for over half its history has been tuned in to the commercial aspects of entering the event.

SS

 

Rennmaus

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^ Agree to a large extend, however, they could have saved the event in a better and more successful way.

 

Forourselves

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^ Agree to a large extend, however, they could have saved the event in a better and more successful way.
Possibly, time will tell, but pretty difficult position to be in. On one hand, you do what you have to to win, and they did. That meant they made a deal with Luna Rossa that they had to come through on. But in making that deal, and going in the direction they did with their Bermuda campaign, they had to refresh their sailing team with young guys, guys who thrive on speed and instinct, and excitement, so they had to at least try and appeal to them as well, as they also bring a younger audience. They had to take all those things into account, as well as try and repair the damage done. Time will tell whether they got it right or not. But we can't dismiss it before we've even seen a boat launched. History shows Auckland is more than capable of putting on a fantastic AC, whether the racing itself lives up to the hype or not is the question.

 

Horn Rock

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That fact makes me wonder how VOR can only sell the deal to so few sponsors. 
I started losing interest in the VOR when they cut out the Maxi's, and now they've gone one design it's even less compelling for me. I know they do it to save teams money, but without a design contest it's not so interesting. Larry tried to do it in AC35 - essentially make the boats so similar, that Jimmy would be able to do a job on everyone. One team refused to play that game......and took Jimmy out of the equation.

 

Forourselves

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In terms of the event as a whole, for Me, probably 87, 95, 2000, and 2007 were the best Cups. In terms of the best racing, probably Louis Vuitton Cup 87, Louis Vuitton Cup 2000 and Americas Cup 2007. 

 

EYESAILOR

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I know they do it to save teams money, but without a design contest it's not so interesting.
Here you go ;Design Contest Knock yourself out by watching design contests

Untitled-design-75.png

For those of us who like watching sailing contests, it has never been better with the closest finish to the VOR of all time and an AC which has taken sailing skills to an all time high.  

170530115932-artemis-racing-americas-cup-3-super-169.jpg

 

Horn Rock

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In AC35 as well as Burling and Co sailed, ETNZ clearly had an edge with their boat. I'm not complaining, Kiwi ingenuity, originality, and design nous came to the fore. ETNZ's win was a great summary of NZ sailing strength.

 
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Horn Rock

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While I'm in dick swinging mode - KZ7, Black Magic (95), Black Magic(2000), Aotearoa (AC35), and Steinlager2 are Icons of not just NZ sailing, but of world sailing. An amazing line up of boats to come from one little nation.

 

shanghaisailor

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Here you go ;Design Contest Knock yourself out by watching design contests

View attachment 279007

For those of us who like watching sailing contests, it has never been better with the closest finish to the VOR of all time and an AC which has taken sailing skills to an all time high.  

View attachment 279008
You are 100% right EYESAILOR.

When Peter Blake asked Bruce Farr the question regarding rating differences of a masthead against a fractional ketch he's added 2 feet of waterline length to Steinlager and basically won the Whitbread before the ink was dry on the Farr Associates drawing board because as we all know there is no substitute on a displacement vessel for waterline length when it comes to speed potential.

And you couldn't just build a bigger boat because, as I am sure you all know the term "Maxi" comes from the maximum allowed rating of around 70 feet under the IOR that was around at that time.

Also when Ian Walker was met with congratulations after setting the Fastnet record on Abu Dhabi (the first one) he already knew they had problems because the boat was fast in the wrong directions for the Volvo Ocean Race which was to follow. He was right, they came second last.

Just what is the fun for sailors and SAILING fans when design differences pre-determine the result of race and negate the skill of the sailors.

ALL these events are run on a commercial basis these days and sponsors need their ROI. If the racing is not close the public don't tune in (either on line, in the media or physical attendance). That lack of interest translates directly into reduced ROI, leads to lack of interest from sponsors, leads to the death of sponsored events.

No Money, No Game; it's not rocket science, just simple economics

SS

 
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Terry Hollis

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Just what is the fun for sailors and SAILING fans when design differences pre-determine the result of race and negate the skill of the sailors.
I have been a sailing fan since I built my first boat in 1951.  My interest is in the development of the design of faster boats.  While I recognize that some sailors have superior skills the skill of the designers is what captures my interest.

The America's Cup is the perfect environment to show the best designs .. the sailors at that level are all the same and merely provide the means to show the best design.

 

EYESAILOR

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I have been a sailing fan since I built my first boat in 1951.  My interest is in the development of the design of faster boats.  While I recognize that some sailors have superior skills the skill of the designers is what captures my interest.
There are all the speed records to capture your attention then.  Paul Larsen and Vestas speed rocket must really get your pulse pounding or when the massive multi hulls shatter transatlantic and trans pacific records.   I agree the results of the Vendee Globe are stunning achievements (but does anyone who doesnt speak French actually bother following the race on a day by day basis).  The Sydney - Hobart is a boat design race.

However, I confess I have lost interest over the years in watching boats with clearly different speeds race around short courses . I mean seriously, what is the point?   Do one speed test, give a design award to the designer and go home.

What has been exciting about the AC since it started foiling is that the skill quotient of the sailors has become vastly more important in winning the game.  The kiwis are being unduly modest about Bermuda. They made some design innovations but equally important the sailors perfected the technique of foiling and were a cut above the competition. Burling, Tuke and Ashby are extraordinary talents . I have no doubt that if this next edition was held in the foiling AC 50s again, that despite the others catching up in technology, the kiwis would have won again.

I am a red blooded patriotic Americun......but unless something changes I am feeling pessimistic about our chances with American Conjurer because I just dont see the same leading edge talent coming together for the team. (Altho that Brit Moth sailor looks very good).

So, in short:

.

the sailors at that level are all the same and merely provide the means to show the best design
= Horse feces!

 

Kiwing

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^ being a one eyes Kiwi fan I still have to admire Glen Ashby who must be such a skilled sailor and visionary.  He with the others look out there with their sailing skills.

I also think Nathan and a few of the Artemis crew were up there close and I'm very sorry they aren't snapping at the heels of ETNZ this time.  If Nathan had not slid off it all might have been different?

 

Horn Rock

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You are 100% right EYESAILOR.

When Peter Blake asked Bruce Farr the question regarding rating differences of a masthead against a fractional ketch he's added 2 feet of waterline length to Steinlager and basically won the Whitbread before the ink was dry on the Farr Associates drawing board because as we all know there is no substitute on a displacement vessel for waterline length when it comes to speed potential.
That was the brilliance of Blake - to ask that question. It took all his previous experience in Ceramco etc to be able to ponder what would work best. So the beer can beat the fridge, followed by a couple of packs of cigarettes (Merit/Rothmans). Despite Steinlager's dominance it was still a very exciting race.

 

dogwatch

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I have been a sailing fan since I built my first boat in 1951.  My interest is in the development of the design of faster boats.  While I recognize that some sailors have superior skills the skill of the designers is what captures my interest.
It's a valid view as to what is interesting but mine is 100% the opposite. I'm interested in the business and money sides and above all, in the sailing. In design, a bit but not so much. I don't agree at all with your assertion that the sailors make little difference to the results.

 

Terry Hollis

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However, I confess I have lost interest over the years in watching boats with clearly different speeds race around short courses . I mean seriously, what is the point?   Do one speed test, give a design award to the designer and go home.
I accept that some people like the sailors and others like the boats.  The test of the boat is what it can do in competition against other boats designed to do the same job.

If the job is straight line speed like the fastest sailing record it is not a great spectator sport but the results are still interesting when we get to learn about the details of the boat.

The America's cup is the most interesting because the boats are required to sail well in all conditions, light winds, strong winds upwind, down wind, fast tacking and gybes.  There's lot's to watch in the racing but also in the in the development period prior to racing and we can talk about design innovations that we might be able to apply to our own boats.

 
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