Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

[Otterbox]

It seems that Bruce Kirby has at last applied a blow torch

Having been through the almost 150 pages of documents presented to the US Federal Court, over a long wet weekend here in the UK, I will not be the least surprised if ISAF decides its needs to back away from its previous position. The 1992 ISAF plaque agreement is so simple even this non-lawyer can understand it. And the 1983 original agreement with the IYRU is too.

It would not be hard to imagine in the next week a direction from ISAF to the ILCA to stop issuing plaques to LP.

If that happens then we are in a new world.

Its been proven many times over that One Design racing does not have to be in the fastest boat, it has to be in a uniform boat, so that the very best sailor emerges from the pack.

We have 200k+ of a 1969 design, so it has critical mass. I sat on Nothe Hill in Weymouth and I saw young Australian Tom Slingsby win Gold.

The best sailor emerged from the pack.

As a Laser sailor I was in awe.

Right now the class needs to move forward, I don't care if its called a Laser or a Torch, if the class insignia is upside down (thanks Torrid)

I just want to go sailing, I want to be able to buy a new boat, buy parts and I want to know that the class is run by honourable people and by builders who pay their design royalties to the guy who designed it.. And yes I want a cheaper legal sail

Am I alone??

 

[redstar]

Or, ISAF could approve the fundamental class rule change so ILCA can continue issuing plaques to LP, but with the 'Bruce Kirby' trademark removed.

Then the contract/royalties issue could be resolved between LP and Kirby without the sailors being affected (other than by the continuing poor customer service of LP, but that's a different matter).

That was ILCA's intent until ISAF canned the change. Did they can it because it would violate ISAF's contract with Kirby?

 

[Otterbox]

Then both ISAF and ILCA would have admitted what seems pretty damm obvious, they used the Bruce Kirby trademark illegally and we as sailors will eventually have to pay the legal bills and the damages.

The world does not operate by SA rules, there are actually legal consequences if you break legal agreements and the 1992 agreement spells it all out. The idea that you can say to a judge or jury, ohh.. yes we broke the agreement but it was for the greater good does not wash. Succeed with that any every dinghy designer in the world is screwed and how does that help us??

 

[[email protected]]

What a mess!!!

www.shaw4.org/blog.aspx

 

[dogwatch]

Do we really need a 3rd thread in this forum to discuss the same thing?

"Then both ISAF and ILCA would have admitted what seems pretty damm obvious, they used the Bruce Kirby trademark illegally and we as sailors will eventually have to pay the legal bills and the damages."

The lattter seems a pretty likely outcome whatever happens.

" just want to go sailing,"

Fine. You could choose another class.

 

[FishAintBiting]

What a mess!!!

...

Why are you doing this?

Pushing your own boat at the demise of another is not constructive to the sport. I see it as a selfish act.

 

[Cheap Jibes]

What a mess!!!

...

Why are you doing this?

Pushing your own boat at the demise of another is not constructive to the sport. I see it as a selfish act.

Couldn't agree more. Find another way to promote your new boat and come back here when you've sold 200,000 of them

 

[[email protected]]

The Shaw 4 in no way threatens the Laser (there is only one of them), but it is my opinion that the Laser world is in a mess. Do you think is it not a mess, do you think it is "business as usual"?

It cannot remember the last time I heard someone say something positive about the Laser, other than there are lots (200,000) of them.

Comments about its designer like "It seems that Bruce Kirby has at last applied a blow torch" refering to the builder does not sound like a happy working relationship dedicate to the future of the class to me.

 

[FishAintBiting]

The Shaw 4 in no way threatens the Laser (there is only one of them), but it is my opinion that the Laser world is in a mess. Do you think is it not a mess, do you think it is "business as usual"?

It cannot remember the last time I heard someone say something positive about the Laser, other than there are lots of them.

There have been a number of comments about the excellent racing with the laser, this is perhaps why it has been at the forefront of numbers sailing for so many years. They are seeing some challenges ahead of them but there are greater ones for sailing as a whole.

Placing links to your boat, or making negative comments, is not going to help the situation.

It is easy to criticize and it is really hard to do.

 

[RobG]

…

" just want to go sailing,"

Fine. You could choose another class.

The Shaw 4 in no way threatens the Laser (there is only one of them), but it is my opinion that the Laser world is in a mess. Do you think is it not a mess, do you think it is "business as usual"?

It cannot remember the last time I heard someone say something positive about the Laser, other than there are lots of them.

There have been a number of comments about the excellent racing with the laser, this is perhaps why it has been at the forefront of numbers sailing for so many years. They are seeing some challenges ahead of them but there are greater ones for sailing as a whole.

Placing links to your boat, or making negative comments, is not going to help the situation.

It is easy to criticize and it is really hard to do.

Apparently even handedness is difficult too.

 

[JimC]

The 1992 ISAF plaque agreement is so simple even this non-lawyer can understand it. And the 1983 original agreement with the IYRU is too.

Mind you this stuff always looks simple and obvious until the other side presents their argument. That's how lawyers justify their ridiculous fees. Hard to believe that LPE would have gone this route if it were completely cut and dried. I predict that if/when you see what the others side's lawyers come up wth there will be some very plausible stuff about how the contracts are invalid, maybe to do with the transfer of rights to Global Sailing that have since been transferred back. Was there much about that in the documents you read? If not then that may be significant.

Don't get me wrong, I think LPE are 100% morally in the wrong, and appear to be doing much damage to the Laser Class and the sport in general, and I think ILCA were complete mugs to stick their soft parts in the middle of something they didn't understand, but I don't think moral considerations or damage to the sport or anything else we care about will have the slightest effect on the outcome of lawsuits. Oh, and, the US legal system having the reputation it does, I bet it drags on for *years*.

 

[MR.CLEAN]

Otterbox - do you have a link to the actual exhibits, or can you post the documents via Dropbox or Wetransfer or Mega.co.nz or whatever? If you want private, you can email to clean at sailinganarchy dot com

 

[RobG]

A link to the court documents was posted on the Laser lawsuit thread: http://dockets.justi...3cv00297/99988/

Dogwatch also posted this link: http://sailingforums.com/threads/all-about-to-kick-off.27967/page-3#post-131302

 

[Speng]

So what does this mean about new Lasers? US judges like to slap injunctions on stuff and given what's going on it might have force outside the US... could this put a strangle on new Laser supply?

 

[RMK]

The 1992 ISAF plaque agreement is so simple even this non-lawyer can understand it. And the 1983 original agreement with the IYRU is too.

Mind you this stuff always looks simple and obvious until the other side presents their argument. That's how lawyers justify their ridiculous fees. Hard to believe that LPE would have gone this route if it were completely cut and dried. I predict that if/when you see what the others side's lawyers come up wth there will be some very plausible stuff about how the contracts are invalid, maybe to do with the transfer of rights to Global Sailing that have since been transferred back. Was there much about that in the documents you read? If not then that may be significant.

Don't get me wrong, I think LPE are 100% morally in the wrong, and appear to be doing much damage to the Laser Class and the sport in general, and I think ILCA were complete mugs to stick their soft parts in the middle of something they didn't understand, but I don't think moral considerations or damage to the sport or anything else we care about will have the slightest effect on the outcome of lawsuits. Oh, and, the US legal system having the reputation it does, I bet it drags on for *years*.

Agree with the first paragraph, well put. We haven't heard the whole story. Interesting how you then ignore the first paragraph completely in your second paragraph, "I think LPE are 100% morally in the wrong"??

 

[Wildwavedesign]

Fraser I have said it before " don't undermine the opposition"

Again, BK is as I have said before a friend of mine. Look at the body of work he has done.

And reasons as to why the Laser is a success ~ there is about 210,000 reasons.

I think you are feeling the effects of the "blow torch" in this thread.

 

[Phil S]

Legal cases are sometimes determined by things other than facts, justice, truth and honesty, but rather by the depth of pockets as to who can afford the most expensive lawyers for the longest. If it goes this way the money will be on LP and ISAF.

 

[Gray Ghost]

It cannot remember the last time I heard someone say something positive about the Laser, other than there are lots (200,000) of them.

Here, let me help you: The Laser is common, relatively inexpensive, light, simple, cartoppable, relatively durable, relatively fast, fun, can be sailed by a wide range of sailors in terms of age and weight, distributed worldwide, and has had consistent class rules since its inception meaning older boats in good condition are still usable.

And the fact that there are 200,000+ of them is not to be ignored. It means they are readily available used, at attractive price points.

That's why our club has chosen to purchase Lasers for a club-owned singlehanded fleet. There are compromises involved in the choice of a singlehanded boat, just as there are in the design of a singlehanded boat. The Laser remains the single best choice for a lot of reasons.

There is enough money at stake that the various parties will iron out their differences. This litigation should be a step in the right direction towards a resolution. In the meantime, except at the highest levels, we can run regattas at which unlicensed sails and parts are permitted, and 99% of the sailors can't tell the difference.

 

[Phil S]

The strength of the Laser is the 200,000 boat owners. If all the legal conflict goes too long or sends any of the players out of the game, there will still be all those Laser owners who want to keep sailing their boats. The class will survive because all the sailors want it to. They may need a new type of class organisation with different builder rules but its up to them to decide. The sport needs groups like this, popular classes like this and simple boats like this, The Laser just happens to be the most successful and should continue to be so no matter what the courts decide.

Its hard to see anything new competing with this part of the market even if there is a temporary interuption to supply.