Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

[Bill5]

Not sure how my initial Zzzzz's wound up above Gantt's latest verbal onslaught. Respectfully, Gantt, your pontifications are not going have the slightest impact on the direction of the Laser class. Find two friends to sail Lasers and you will be providing a much more beneficial contribution.

bill4, I hope that my posts may not in the end have the slightest impact on the direction of the Laser class, which incidentally is dominated by good people who have a strong sense of fair play. However I also hoped that Kirby's legal would have been over my now. I hoped that the ILCA acted differently, and I appreciate respect, really I do.

Yesterday I helped introduce another person to sailing. It wasn't in a Laser (she was a bit young), but maybe one day. Also helped two people make small adjustments to their Laser rigs and chatted about the race that was about to happen. One was a Vanguard boat, the other a PSA boat which I thought was interesting.

When I wrote "The moment we stop talking about the things that are important to the Laser class, is when the class risks losing it's way.", what crossed my mind was the most important thing is to go sailing - that the talk about sailing stuff is of the highest importance. However I also believe that it's really important that Laser sailing gets this right - and when I say right - I mean recognises Kirby's role properly and without treating him poorly, and improvements to the ILCA made.

Good on ya for the intro, Gantt! That's a way better spend of your energy!

Everybody wants fair play, a well-run organization, better/cheaper boats and equipment, larger participation, lower taxes, better Medicare, a greener planet and the elimination of poverty. I bet Rastegar, the ILCA and BKI would support all these. But once you throw personal interest, egos and $ in the mix, everybody sees different solutions through the lenses they view such matters. Hence the lawsuits. And until these are settled, progress (on the sailing bits anyway) is on hold. The initial few hundred posts on what may or may not happen were kind of interesting, but it's been like summer reruns for months.

 

[Wess]

Canntt - Its not a personal attack; its YOUR OWN POSTS and they are either a correct or not.

* Were you a member of the class at the time of the vote - yes or no? You posted here you were not.

* Did you vote or attempt to vote on the matter of the rule change while you were not a member of the class - yes or no? You posted here that you did.

Posting BS and stirring is one thing; actually doing it in real life is another. I don't care if folks come to SA and this thread and post BS and stir... it is SA afterall and its entertainment; not reality. But you you kind sir apparently posted that in real life you entered a vote in a matter before a class that you knowingly were not a member of. If what you posted is in fact accurate it says a lot about you and frankly you have done Kirby no favor. If you and your actions are what he endorses I wish him well and wish him gone. But I doubt he does endorse you and the actions you claim and I doubt the Spencers do either, or anyone associated with them which is why you canntt back up your other claim related to imaginary friends.

Its 2 simple simple yes or no question Canntt. Can you manage to answer that? Yes or no. Tick, tock.

Que the crickets and smoke bombs.

 

[JimC]

Not sure I'd like to see what you do consider personal attacks.

 

[torrid]

Granted this is Sailing Anarchy and it's just a username anyway, but how is continuing to call him "Canntt" not a personal attack?

 

[torrid]

What, are you talking about actually sailing a boat? Like out on the water?

 

[Wess]

Frostbiting on Sunday it was hot as well Gouv.

Torrid - I took to Canntt because he canntt or wonntt answer a simple question but if you prefer and think it would help....

Gantt,

You posted and wrote you were not a member of class but yet you posted and wrote that you entered a vote regarding the class rule change.

* Might you be so kind to respond with a simple yes or no as to if it is true that you cast a vote in a matter before a class that you were not a member of?

* If no, why did you post that you did?

Thank you.

Sincerely,

It perhaps gets tiresome to have somebody who is not a member of a class, tell the members of the class what it is they should do, how it is they should vote, and even how to spend their money (based on a personal opinion mind you, not any legal basis). I mean if some sanctimonious sack of shit (now that would be a personal attack) individual is going to preach from on high, claiming the moral ground, and cast ballots electing our church elders, I thought it might be fair game to inquire when he said he did something that most individuals would not (would you Torrid or JimC vote in a class you were not a member of - seriously?) if he actually did what he claimed (which might say someting about the integrity of his other claims).

Anyway, truth be told, I am liking Gouv's game and thinking of playing as well. How many pages could we make go away if we deleted them all Gouv?

 

[Bruce Hudson]

Everybody wants fair play, a well-run organization, better/cheaper boats and equipment, larger participation, lower taxes, better Medicare, a greener planet and the elimination of poverty. I bet Rastegar, the ILCA and BKI would support all these. But once you throw personal interest, egos and $ in the mix, everybody sees different solutions through the lenses they view such matters. Hence the lawsuits. And until these are settled, progress (on the sailing bits anyway) is on hold. The initial few hundred posts on what may or may not happen were kind of interesting, but it's been like summer reruns for months.

Redstar, you mentioned the other day how silly it was to make calls for the ILCA to be communicative in the middle of a law suit. I agree. Over and above Kirby's action and questioning the voting process for the fundamental rule change, there are concerns.

The annual Laser build figures haven't been posted to ISAF since 2010. The financials stopped being posted in Laser World. According to the ISAF website, Heine Wellmann is still the president of the ILCA, (http://www.sailing.org/classesandequipment/LSR.php) What's really going on? What I'm talking about regarding communication (from the ILCA) is far bigger than and a lot pre-date Kirby's legal action.

So let's take the annual build figures. Have they dropped? If they have dropped, then the ILCA's revenues will have been reduced.

The question of a well performing class association is bigger than the lawsuit.

Everything is not on hold. And it's a critical time for the ILCA because of the law suit.

______________________________________________________________

Wess, you got me, you know you have. The answer to both questions is yes, and because of that, everything I have said was wrong, my ethics are poor and you are right. There is no point addressing my ill founded and fairy tale posts on this forum, you are correct in attacking me personally. I deserve it.

 

[Board skiff]

Wess, if you support some model of opening up the Laser for all and having free-for-all on boats and parts, why don't you front up the organisation that would run this new class? Or do you just like trolling? I don't get why you would want to bite the hand that has fed the class so spectacularly well for so long, but if you really do just quit whinging and get on do it.

 

[Wess]

Sosoomi - Well on this thread I admit I do like trolling because there is a fun troll that lives here that is easy to spool up, but I am serious about not minding a class model of it opening up to multiple manufacturers. That is not trolling. I think Gouv is actually a bit more passionate about that topic than I am (though I am a supporter). My posts on this (Gouv has since deleted his posts) were actually in response to him and noting that Kirby could do exactly what Gouv was asking for.

I'm not supportive of a free for all but rather more of an Opti model where its OD but there are different builders that compete. I am not opposed to SMOD per say, but the class is alas stuck in a situation where they are hostage to the trademark holders and I think most everyone would agree LPE performance has been less than satisfactory. And then there is the sail prices and part price mark-ups which many have noted. There is no way out though unless you are willing to part with the name LASER.

But as for why don't I... well that is pretty simple. I don't believe I have or should have the right to force or try to force my view onto the class. I express a view; I vote and I accept the decisions made as best for the class members broadly. Its also not like there isn't many used boats available at decent prices for those coming in at the club level. With used boats, generic sails, and generic parts, I think LASER is a pretty accessible game at the club level. I am a bit more energetic within the class about encouraging the generic stuff rather than squashing it but again I should only expect and get one vote. I don't believe in revolution; I believe in evolution and with respect to generic parts and sails at the club level I think the genie is out of the bottle and there is no putting it back. At least I hope not.

But we have strayed a long way from the actual litigation.

And no Gannt,your admission does not make everything you posted wrong but I would be stunned - honestly stunned - if even 2 out of 100 people (or even 5 out of 100 here, LOL) I sail with would say they would do what you did and be willing to cast a vote on a class matter when they were not even a member of the class. No trolling here or attempt to wind you up. I honestly think that what you did is one of the saddest things I have seen. More than anything, I feel sorry for you. Somehow you let this take over your life to the point you can't se reality in front you or respect boundries that most folks (I would hope) would. You should go ask sailors you respect if they would do what you did.

Edit to add - I see Gouv beat me to it with his post above. He has a good game going so I will not quote him so he can continue in case his last one is also of invisable ink, LOL.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

You should write fairy tales. You are good at it. No truth, no facts, just endless stream of BS. Actually its pretty cool. I don't think anybody has written the biography of the big bad wolf.

(...)

But we have strayed a long way from the actual litigation.

And no Gannt,your admission does not make everything you posted wrong but I would be stunned - honestly stunned - if even 2 out of 100 people (or even 5 out of 100 here, LOL) I sail with would say they would do what you did and be willing to cast a vote on a class matter when they were not even a member of the class. No trolling here or attempt to wind you up. I honestly think that what you did is one of the saddest things I have seen. More than anything, I feel sorry for you. Somehow you let this take over your life to the point you can't se reality in front you or respect boundries that most folks (I would hope) would. You should go ask sailors you respect if they would do what you did.

(...)

No Wess, you are right. It's no use saying that I was right about anything. There is no truth in anything that I have posted. It's an endless stream of BS. I should turn myself over the to the authorities for voting when I was a not member. (Who are the authorities, the FBI? The CIA? The ISAF?) The ILCA voting process was bullet proof. I did not say whether or not I voted in my own name, no point saying anything about that now, because nobody believes anything I say. The ILCA's actions are beyond reproach. You are particularly right to refer to the ILCA Exec as "church elders", they are that good. Everything I say can be verified as rubbish. The vote reflected the will of the members, and I, particularly as a non-member, particularly as someone of low moral fibre, have no right to question anything. I have let this take over my life. Your posts are righteous. Mine are pathetic. I am lying about everything, have no interest in Lasers, even forged the emails that I forwarded to Gouv - they, as you rightly point out are imaginary friends, and certainly not simple copies of correspondence verifying facts as I claimed.

Wess, I owe you a huge thank you for exposing me. I am relieved. Now I can rebuild my life.

 

[Bill5]

I like Gouv's plan. Done right, it should create harmony on a global basis with a number of qualified builders committed contractually to strict one design principles. A properly (re)constituted ILCA could control change as directed by the membership. I like it. Fuck. I am falling into this rabbit hole...

 

[EYESAILOR]

I should turn myself over the to the authorities for voting when I was a not member. (Who are the authorities, the FBI? The CIA? The ISAF?)

Gantt

That was both illegal and highly unethical.

Either that or you were lying when you said you voted when you were not a member.

Either way you are a sanctimonious ********* and I don't know why we don't just call you out for what you are. You accuse long standing anarchists of being sock puppets. You talk pompous BS about fair play. You make all these statements that turn out to be plain wrong. When posters point this out, you temporarily back off and then 10 pages later you start spouting the same rubbish again. You tell people how much better that ILCA could be run if only they listened to you and worst of all, you try and tell us about your standards of honesty and fair play. Good grief.

You have inherited the mantle of being the single most annoying poster on sailing anarchy . Doug Lord was a saint compared to you.

I have always enjoyed Gouv's posts. He is a thorn in the side of the North American Laser class. First he has done so much for the class over the years that he has earned the right to be critical and frankly he keeps them on their toes. Plus he runs an awesome regatta each year.

You on the other hand are a ******* pool of negative energy. At times like this, I miss Lesbian Robot.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

Thank you Eyesailor for your positive contribution. Haven't you heard, I am a born again poster?

Your dear friend Wess has already shown the error of my ways. It's worse than what you say, because were I to come back ten pages later after being pointed out a mistake, then I would have only have made two mistakes. As Wess pointed out I have made no statements of truth. I lie and cheat and cannot be trusted. Don't single out any item where I am wrong, because it entails too much reasoning with insufficient returns for some upstanding as yourself to make the effort. Please, continue the personal attacks. Actually I am surprised you are even reacting to my posts, because I usually don't make any sense. I don't know who Doug Lord, or Lesbian Robot are, but if in your judgement they were bad then they must have been really really really really bad. In fact invite others to partake, because I deserve it.

______________________________________________________

I like Gouv's plan. Done right, it should create harmony on a global basis with a number of qualified builders committed contractually to strict one design principles. A properly (re)constituted ILCA could control change as directed by the membership. I like it. Fuck. I am falling into this rabbit hole...

It could work if properly managed and properly funded. The concern would be to ensure that the boats were as identical as possible.

A minimal royalty of say 5% of the value of a wholesale boat should fund the ILCA for the chief measurer to travel the world and inspect the boats, and the cost of a bureaucrat to setup and manage the contracts and pay the lawyers. The ILCA must have powers to terminate the builder at their discretion. Maybe the ILCA should own the moulds.

If not an amazing system that controls manufacturing then we'll need to go the same way as all other classes and have measuring prior to contests. The Finn class has a pretty good system to measure such things as the centre of gravity.

 

[bluelaser2]

I think the Laser trademark has been genericised to the extent that the current rights-holder may not prevail if pressed. The mark no longer pertains to a specific supplier and many people consider any small cat rigged boat of a certain shape to be a "Laser".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark



.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

I think the Laser trademark has been genericised to the extent that the current rights-holder may not prevail if pressed. The mark no longer pertains to a specific supplier and many people consider any small cat rigged boat of a certain shape to be a "Laser".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark

Hi Bluelaser2, you may have got your wires crossed a little about the relationship between the Trademark and the boat design.

The Trademark is separate to the boat itself, it's just the mark on the boat.

The 'design rights' for the cat rigged boat known as the Laser are the subject of a Legal action initiated by Bruce Kirby, and are defined in several contracts discussed in this thread. At the core of this dispute is whether or not the contracts are binding for one of the builders of the Laser, Laser Performance.

Only an approved Laser can sail in ILCA sanctioned events, so that approval process is very important.

 

[RobG]

I am the one championing opening up the game to boats from anyone who builds toys that meet our specifications.

Ok, so put up a model and see if you can get someone to stand for a committee position using it as a platform.

I have no idea how the association can extricate it self from whatever contractual obligations it has, but surely there has been ample time (several years) to work on it, and at least two to go before it needs to be enacted (pretty soon after the 2016 Olympics would be nice). Time to get ISAF on board. Time to get sailors on board too.

The manufacturers will never come on board, but it's not their game. Without the support of ISAF/ILCA keeping the Laser as an Olympic class, it will die very quickly (to be replaced by the next SMOD Olympic single hander, there are a couple of contenders…).

Something along the lines of:

1. Publish the construction manual
   
2. Devise a suitable process for modifying and updating it (e.g. builders have input but no veto)
   
3. Devise a suitable process for certifying builders and regular inspections for QA (probably very similar to what is done now)
   
4. Devise a suitable fee for the plaques
   
5. Require builders to support events with a fee based on the number of boats sold and held in trust, with a published amount to be distributed to event organisers based on the number of boats attending
   
6. Require major event organisers to put forward proposals for events that are published, along with full costings and where all the money goes and how much of the association's money is put toward the event
   
7. Give the boat a new name, e.g. "International 422" (since the boat is about 4.22m long) or similar. Trademark holders can still sell it as a Laser, but others as the new name
   
8. Maybe pay Bruce Kirby a fee for each boat equivalent to the current royalty, a one–off $60/boat is not much. Let the membership decide.
   
9. Think up a nifty name for the associated campaign: "The Gouv plan for Laser Greatness!!".

How is that for a start?

Sorry Gouv, but there must be a recognised "best" boat. It's the one that not only complies with the class rules, but is also ranked highest by sailors based on the quality of the finish and fittings, durability and after sales support with the final score weighted by purchase price.

Capitalism only works for consumers in properly regulated market. Otherwise you get a market dominated by greedy arse holes who would rather spoil the fun for everyone than let anyone else make a single sale.

 

[ojfd]

My guess is there are quite a number of is who would happily build a dozen to a hundred thousand generic Lasers annually.

However, this competent potential builder has zero interest in building toys his customers may not use in races.

Not necessarily..
http://ymlp.com/zXCKoL

For the last few years, in Argentina a boat builder has been selling a very popular dinghy sailboat, which is commonly known as the 99% Laser. It has all the Laser ingredients, races with the Laser, but does not display the Laser logo or name. The Argentinean program is a success as the boats are cheaper and parts are easily available.

Russians had Laser clones for ages.

Ukrainians have taken some different route. Hull lines look to be the same, but the transom is open.

http://ultra.kh.ua/foto/

 

[JimC]

Why do you think going to multiple builders would make things cheaper with the dreadful example of the Optimist - world's most expensive orange box - in front of you?

All the evidence I can see suggests that within classes competition between builders is on quality - boat speed almost always - and given the choice of two builders sailors pick the fast but expensive one.

Competition on price seems mainly to be between classes, so if class x is too expensive it's outsold by class y, even though class x is built to a very high standard and class y is built down to a price.

 

[Wess]

Jim,

Its a good question and I am not sure anyone has an answer. I sure don't. The Opti proves the class structure can work but the benefit of competitive prices seems to not have materialized as you note. You could argue the exact same points using the Snipe class.

In the case of Laser, while its clear the structure can work (see Opti and Snipe) it of course could not be called laser as LPE and PSA own the trademark. Its also suggested a generic boat can be produced at competitive prices as the Laser knock-off the 99er shows (from ojfd above: http://ymlp.com/zXCKoL) and even Kirby could do it with the Torch. So structure wise it can be done and cost wise it can be done but yet it does not get done. The biggest surprise to me in the whole lawsuit thing is actually that this was the one thing that BKI said they would do that they didn't do. Really surprised the Torch turned out to be a 4th of July sparkler dud.

No clue as to why. Maybe distribution channels, maybe competition from used boats, maybe not enough money in it, etc... If anybody could do it, it would be Kirby. He has the whole name recognition and loyalty thing going for him.

 

[JimC]

So structure wise it can be done and cost wise it can be done but yet it does not get done.

But that's the whole point. A knock off is a different class, and different classes compete on price. After all WTF would anyone buy a knockoff you can't class race unless it was a shed load cheaper. If the Laser became a multi builder class it would be just like every other multi builder class in the world, quality would go up, price would go up, and sales would go down.
As for why Kirby is not promoting his new class more actively, I can only guess that he still has hopes of salvaging the Laser. My best guess would be that if he sees the lawsuit going badly the Torch will be back on the agenda. Most likely it was mainly to try and concentrate minds at the ILCA...