Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

[jeffers]

I was also told from an internal source at LP/LPE that the PSA boats are not being built to the construction manual. This may just be some shit slinging on their part as nothing has surfaced about measurement issues recently....

This also might be the part of information/desinformation war and you just became the weapon of it by spreading the rumour.If you, guys, are getting bored, take a look a BK's Laser trademark cancelling attempt. There's a lot of reading material.http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pno=92057217&pty=CAN

I am pretty sure it is shit slinging, as would most people be. Neither side is covering themselves in glory and are both doing more damage than good. It is the RYA Dinghy Show this weekend, I might go and wind up LPE over their training sail....

Be careful they don't set the lawyer's on you. You know what their like, just ask Mr kneewreaker

Let em try..... "Excuse me can you tell me why, as an official builder (subject to court case) you feel it is appropriate to sell non-class legal parts for the boat you build?"

Although I might decide I really can't be bothered....or use the foredeck of their display one as an impromptu changing table for my youngest

 

[Wavedancer II]

That would be an interesting conversation. I will listen in from afar.

 

[ds2]

I was also told from an internal source at LP/LPE that the PSA boats are not being built to the construction manual. This may just be some shit slinging on their part as nothing has surfaced about measurement issues recently....

This also might be the part of information/desinformation war and you just became the weapon of it by spreading the rumour.If you, guys, are getting bored, take a look a BK's Laser trademark cancelling attempt. There's a lot of reading material.http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pno=92057217&pty=CAN

I am pretty sure it is shit slinging, as would most people be. Neither side is covering themselves in glory and are both doing more damage than good. It is the RYA Dinghy Show this weekend, I might go and wind up LPE over their training sail....

Be careful they don't set the lawyer's on you. You know what their like, just ask Mr kneewreaker

Let em try..... "Excuse me can you tell me why, as an official builder (subject to court case) you feel it is appropriate to sell non-class legal parts for the boat you build?"

Although I might decide I really can't be bothered....or use the foredeck of their display one as an impromptu changing table for my youngest

Think your last idea is the best one

Lasers have been so good for sailing for so long, is a shame to see it end up the way it has. At least there are two good alternatives in the market now.

 

[Dex Sawash]

And a possible cross-branding opportunity for Mclaren

 

[Bruce Hudson]

Zero February Gantt posts. ??

Yup. Been kinda busy. Also, there was very little worth responding to, except this:

Interesting claim by Kirby in the latest documents:

In October of 2010, ILCA principles traveled to Connecticut at

LaserPerformance’s expense for a two-day meeting at LaserPerformance headquarters in

Norwalk, Connecticut. At that meeting, ILCA and LaserPerformance agreed on a plan to

eliminate Bruce Kirby from the Kirby sailboat business and to render his builder agreements

worthless. The direct result of this scheme hatched at the Norwalk meeting enabled

LaserPerformance to continue building plaqued boats without authorization of Bruce Kirby.

Any solid evidence that this meeting took place?

If the meeting did take place, is there evidence that this plan was hatched?

I don't think any of the parties are denying or will deny that the meeting took place, though I expect the content of the meetings will be fiercely debated! I don't know of any specific evidence that Kirby has, though expect that there would be emails discussing it and even minutes taken for the meeting.

On 24 Jan 2012 there was correspondence from ILCA President (Heini Wellmann) to Farzad Rastegar that said (snip):

"I am equally sorry that I could not participate in your phone call with Jeff Martin, but I was neither made aware of this call beforehand nor of your wish that I participate. I am still available anytime to discuss this matter with you over the phone; please let me know your wishes."


Rastegar responded on the same day:
"Dear Heinl,
I find this exchange incredibly unfortunate. In a sense, it is also offensive. I do believe that you seeking a sponsorship
is confused with you demanding financial support. The attitude, the form and the substance are all regrettable. It is
equally unfortunate that you were not disposed to participate in the long telephone conversation with Jeff Martin on
this topic. Let me just remind you for the avoidance of doubt: any attempts to violate LP or any group intellectual
property by way of any scheme that ILCA or its agents would devise would be vigorously defended and anyone who
perpetrates any initiative to violate our rights would be equally challenged. I hope this is very clear and unlike your
message, there are no veiled threats in there.
This all surreal. If I were you, I would be lining up behind the doors of Maclaren to get a sponsorship rather than embark
on threats and demands.
Be guided accordingly.
Respectfully
Farzad"

I wonder what was going on with the ILCA between Jeff Martin and Heini Wellmann behind the scenes? Is Farzad Rastegar defending Jeff Martin by contradicting Heini - by saying that Heini was not "disposed to participate"? This exchange took place shortly after the controversial 2011 vote to change the fundamental rule.
Finally, February 2015 saw Margo Kirby get involved. Why is that?

Lots of motions, some motions to seal that were effective, and therefore limits our ability as interested bystanders to know what's going on.

 

[Wess]

Zero February Gantt posts. ??

I swore off the thread for sailing but then some supreme being saw fit to freeze all our F-ing water. And then when a chance to quote one of your posts popped up I could not resist!

Your other puppet is cuter though.

Finally, February 2015 saw Margo Kirby get involved. Why is that?

I think I was maybe told by a guy from Texas with crazy hair that she was given two choices. She could either sail a Torch or get involved. But it turned out that even SHE couldn't get a Torch out of BK despite all the promises! Its possible that bit is completely divorced from reality and made up by my sailing deprived mind which is sinking ever further into a depression due to the hardened state of our water.

OK, now I have to think about how to work the Gov. Perry line a few posts up into the GB threads. Those couch sailors are fun to poke.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

Wess, I can't follow your logic. It's really clear what the situation is with the Torch; it's not available until the legal action is exhausted and is still a viable option for the future.

Bruce Kirby has not broken any promises with the Torch.

Maybe this can help you shed some light: http://www.wickedlasers.com/torch.

 

[Yah00]

Bruce Kirby has not broken any promises with the Torch.

Maybe this can help you shed some light: http://www.wickedlasers.com/torch.

Is there a subliminal message in linking to a product that represents itself as something it isn't?

Wicked Lasers…are…handled lasers

No they aren't—they're a halogen lamp and reflector.

 

[Wess]

Wess, I can't follow your logic.

It's really clear what the situation is with the Torch.

Bruce Kirby has not broken any promises with the Torch.

I know you Canntt.

Yes he promised a boat and a class.

But that apparently got him into legal trouble so then he had to break his promise.

All in my warped demented soft water deprived mind's opinion and purely for entertainment purposes.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

Wess, I can't follow your logic.

It's really clear what the situation is with the Torch.

Bruce Kirby has not broken any promises with the Torch.

I know you Canntt.

Yes he promised a boat and a class.

But that apparently got him into legal trouble so then he had to break his promise.

All in my warped demented soft water deprived mind's opinion and purely for entertainment purposes.

From an entertainment perspective, I am underwhelmed.

When did he break the promise, next year? (I am really struggling with your logic Wess.)

 

[Wess]

Wess, I can't follow your logic.

It's really clear what the situation is with the Torch.

Bruce Kirby has not broken any promises with the Torch.

I know you Canntt.

Yes he promised a boat and a class.

But that apparently got him into legal trouble so then he had to break his promise.

All in my warped demented soft water deprived mind's opinion and purely for entertainment purposes.

From an entertainment perspective, I am underwhelmed.

When did he break the promise, next year? (I am really struggling with your logic Wess.)

So sorry to have not met your expectations Canntt.

With not joining the class, but yet voting on class matters, you set the bar at a level I can never achieve so I fear you will continue to be underwhelmed. This may also explain why we view the actions w re the Torch differently.

Glad you are back though. Wish it was sooner. You cost me a case of beer (on a bet you would not last 2 weeks without posting). I was sure Gouv would drag you back but then he bailed.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

My hope was that we can discuss things of relevance regarding the Kirby case on this forum, instead of dragging this down into the sewer of personal attacks. Wess, I do realise that you have a vested interest, that you (Wess) are happy that Kirby is cut out of the picture, however the consequence is that we go elsewhere to chat about this case.

So, just for the record, I was previously a fully paid member of the ILCA. The only thing that is relevant about me is that I have been sailing Lasers since the 1980s and have an interest in the boat Kirby designed. Like the majority of Laser sailors, I am currently not a member of the ILCA though in my case, it is in protest of the ILCA's actions. At this time, I just can't bring myself to be supportive of an organisation that treated Bruce Kirby in the manner they did.

According to Wess, Kirby did not fulfill the promise of the Torch! Exactly what was the promise that was unfulfilled Wess?

 

[Wess]

The only thing that is relevant about me is that I have been sailing Lasers since the 1980s and have an interest in the boat Kirby designed. Like the majority of Laser sailors, I am currently not a member of the ILCA though in my case, it is in protest of the ILCA's actions. At this time, I just can't bring myself to be supportive of an organisation that treated Bruce Kirby in the manner they did.

I knew you couldn't resist.

You want to talk about the case, the vote and ILCA... but its not relevant that you said you were not a class member but you voted in class matters? Must be more hard water logic. Seems relevant to me.

* Current manufacturers of the Kirby sailboat under the Laser brand are in the process of converting over to manufacture the Kirby sailboat under the Kirby Torch brand. The process is expected to take a few months after which Kirby Torch builders will be the only licensed manufacturers of the Kirby sailboat throughout the world.

Three questions:

1.) when was it said?

2.) who said it?

3.) how long is a few months?

Come on... you can make up for all those missed posts in one day!

 

[Bruce Hudson]

Exactly how is whether or not I voted relevant to Kirby's case? Do you think it changes facts? That it somehow invalidates a long line of critics of the ILCA's actions? That it means that Bruce Kirby was treated fairly by the ILCA?

Glad that you were able to present Kirby's "promise". An expectation of the duration of a process is promise?

Wess, your attempts to engage are pathetic. I'll return when there are some actual developments, or when someone actually makes a contribution. Wess, that is very likely to rule you out based on your past history.

On a separate note, and about the Kirby action, I'm still curious as to why Margo Kirby is involved. I hope Bruce is OK.

 

[ojfd]

On a separate note, and about the Kirby action, I'm still curious as to why Margo Kirby is involved.

No secret there - she's BK's bookkeeper.

 

[Wess]

Don't go Canntt!

I canntt figure out who said:

Through the Kirby Torch brand, sailors will be able to maintain access to hulls, parts and the one-design aspect which is the touchstone of the Kirby sailboat design.

I canntt figure out who posted the picture of a Torch?

Here Comes the Kirby Torch!posted May 15, 2013, 9:59 AM by Kirby Torch

CLICK HERE for a few pictures of the first Kirby Torch sailboats.
I canntt figure out who said that these are the Torch builders?

Builders

THE AMERICAS​

Torch Performance Sailcraft North America, Inc.​

540 Elizabeth Street​

Midland, Ontario L4R2A3​

Canada​

[email protected]​

[SIZE=10pt]EUROPE, MIDDLE EAST, AFRICA[/SIZE]​

Orange Performance Sailcraft B.V.​

p/o Burg. Hendrixstraat 56​

2651JV Berkel en Rodenrijs​

The Netherlands​

[email protected]​

​

ASIA, OCEANIA​

PerformanceSailcraft Pty Limited

P.O. Box 5022​

Chittaway Bay NSW​

Australia 2261​

[email protected]​

I canntt figure out who was selling and entering into inter-state commerce with all the Torch stuff I see everywhere?

Kirby Torch Store Open; Proceeds to Support Class

posted May 13, 2013, 6:55 AM by Kirby Torch

I canntt figure out who runs the Torch class...

http://www.kirbytorch.com/members

You mean it was all just a trick Canntt? You mean that they posted those pictures of a boat and said they were preparing to manufacture in a few months and told us who the builders were and took money for all that stuff they sold, and had people join a class and put out a class constitution and they did all that 2 years ago and none of it was real? It was all just a trick? You mean there is no Torch? But he had pictures posted! I have seen boats sailing with Torch branding. Have we been tricked? Are they not Torches? Are you saying Torches don't exist and it was all a trick to get our money? Are you saying he duped us all with the Torch? Wow, I thought you were Bruce's friend.

And why wouldn't Bruce be OK just because both sides apparently went after anything that had a pulse?

I though you said you were in contact with the key players?

Come on man. I count on you for my insights to this case.

Oh and I see you said I have a vested interest again. Does that mean I am back to being Crane? Hope so. I get much better seating when the reservation is in that name.

This is fun but I hope the water thaws soon! Sailing is more fun.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

So Wess, what exactly was the promise made that Kirby broke?

I can understand it's difficult for you to answer without fabrication or posting stuff that we already know that doesn't answer the question.

On a separate note, and about the Kirby action, I'm still curious as to why Margo Kirby is involved.

No secret there - she's BK's bookkeeper.

Thanks ojfd. Didn't know that. Not sure why she needs to be subjected to a disposition. I'm sure it will come out eventually.

 

[Wess]

But it does answer it Canntt. You might not like the answer but it does answer it.

So what will you do if BKI does not win and wipe ILCA off the face of the earth? Will you will sail your Laser in the class if the rules are not forced back to BK's liking?

 

[Bruce Hudson]

So explain it to me Wess, exactly what was the promise made that Kirby broke? Please just sum it up in one or two sentences because your attempt to state what Bruce Kirby's promise was has so far failed.

 

[Wess]

Quite happy with it. More interested to see how long I can keep you going.