Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

[Bruce Hudson]

...a bit of activity on 7 April... each step getting closer to an outcome,

Unless you can see more than I can see on Plainsite, seems to me that's a bit optimistic. All I see is the US legal system plodding turgidly along with delay added to delay, and much lawyer arguing over what seem to be mainly side issues of the sort lawyers seem to love adding to these cases. Well, it boosts the fees. Kirby has just won a bit on some side issues, but so what, his opposition has won on some too, I Wink that's no guide as to what the final result will be, and that seems a very long way off.

I see each step as progress in a long journey - many small steps equates to significant progress - yes it is taking a long time and unnecessarily so with delays by Rastegar / Laser Performance in providing the basis for the damages claims - Kirby's council say they have failed to furnish them at all.

Any rulings for or against is likely to put some issues to rest.

We now, for example, are getting closer to hearing whether or not there is a case to answer regarding the allegations that Kirby has caused millions of dollars of damage to Rastegar / Laser Performance.

There is the possibility for some significant rulings in May which could close down a big part of Farad Rastegar / Laser Performance's counter suit, a bigger step towards getting to dealing withthe main issues.

 

[EYESAILOR]

I wonder who is paying Bruce Kirby's legal bills.

According to latest disclosures, BK has kept $1.5 million that Global sailing paid him. This is the same that LP offered BK for the whole rights.

Global sailing are still entitled to 50% of the royalties if LP or anyone starts paying him royalties again.

Net result. BK did get at least $1.5 million for his rights. That's good news for the BK supporters.

GS paid $1.5 million for half of something that might be worth nothing. Ooops . Im guessing that they might be contributing to the legal costs?? But its purely a guess.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

I wonder who is paying Bruce Kirby's legal bills.

According to latest disclosures, BK has kept $1.5 million that Global sailing paid him. This is the same that LP offered BK for the whole rights.

Global sailing are still entitled to 50% of the royalties if LP or anyone starts paying him royalties again.

Net result. BK did get at least $1.5 million for his rights. That's good news for the BK supporters.

GS paid $1.5 million for half of something that might be worth nothing. Ooops . Im guessing that they might be contributing to the legal costs?? But its purely a guess.

Bruce Kirby's desire to retire was genuine.

The contracts he had for the boat he designed were legitimate. It's my hope that the courts find the contracts were legitimate - ultimately it is up to the courts, and if they do to hopefully spell out what that means.

"...if LP or anyone starts paying him royalties again.". So you are saying that PSA have stopped paying Kirby royalties? That's in direct contradiction of what PSA say themselves, but I guess you must be right because you wrote it.

We do agree on one thing Eyesailor whoever you are, what you say in that regard is clearly a guess.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

Next big date is 21 May 2015 with the motion hearing.

Soooo ssssllllooooowwwww

Just three days to the motions hearing...

One (small) step closer...

 

[ojfd]

One (small) step closer...

..to the day when BK will be shown the door..

 

[Bruce Hudson]

One (small) step closer...

..to the day when BK will be shown the door..

...to a world where Mr Farzad Rastegar and Bill Crane have nothing to do with the boat he designed, the boat currently called the Laser.

 

[Wess]

You guys still at it?

Kirby already lost. He gave up on his attempt to take down the trademark and there is no way the class is going to reverse course and go back to a rule that gave him the ability to hold us all hostage. That fat lady sang long ago. The class is free. Now its just a bunch of rich idiots fighting and with any luck they all take themselves out.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

...waiting for the results of the motions hearing...

 

[Wess]

You guys still at it?

Kirby already lost. He gave up on his attempt to take down the trademark and there is no way the class is going to reverse course and go back to a rule that gave him the ability to hold us all hostage. That fat lady sang long ago. The class is free. Now its just a bunch of rich idiots fighting and with any luck they all take themselves out.

That's mighty rough on the class

[SIZE=10.5pt]Not my intent at all Gouv.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Sorry for delay; don't hang here much. Hope all is good in your neck of the woods. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]To me, what is left of the case is not an issue that will meaningfully impact sailors and its also the time of year that I am focused on sailing in other classes so not really following this case or thread closely.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]But re the class, rest assured there was no intent or desire to slag on them. I am no fan of Kirby... or LPE or especially PSA etc... but I am a huge fan of how the class handled this mess. I think the class and class leadership is great[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]My point was that since Kirby dropped the trademark lawsuit action and given there is no way the class is going to be forced to go back to the old rule, there is nothing left to the case that will meaningfully impact on sailors in the class. Just an opinion of course but I see it as now just being rich greedy idiots (my short hand for Kirby, LPE and PSA etc...) fighting each other for chump change that may not even cover the legal bills. Maybe Kirby get back royalties from LPE or visa versa or not. Maybe Kirby still owns or holds something of value and can force LPE to pay some price for it. Or not. But its all small potatoes to me. Kirby gave-up, dropped, lost or whatever the trademark actions. So the LASER class is not going away. And with the rule change the ability of a certain party to hold the class and everyone else hostage… you must have an agreement with me and I want a billion zillion dollars or I will not enter an agreement… is now gone in my opinion. If that party owns anything worth selling they can sell it for whatever fair price can be negotiated.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Seems like a good outcome to me. Builders build, and rich greedy fools pay lawyers. Arm chair pundits post on internet forums and class sailors sail.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]On that note I will take my leave and go sailing tonight and tomorrow! I doubt the sky will fall on my head because I don’t blindly worship the old grey hair man or because of anything left in this case but I have learned to never say it canntt happen. [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]J[/SIZE]

 

[Bruce Hudson]

Still waiting for the results to the motions hearing, without which, it is extremely unlikely to add anything new of any value.

 

[SM123]

You guys still at it?

Kirby already lost. He gave up on his attempt to take down the trademark and there is no way the class is going to reverse course and go back to a rule that gave him the ability to hold us all hostage. That fat lady sang long ago. The class is free. Now its just a bunch of rich idiots fighting and with any luck they all take themselves out.

That's mighty rough on the class

[SIZE=10.5pt]Not my intent at all Gouv.[/SIZE]

....

[SIZE=10.5pt]My point was that since Kirby dropped the trademark lawsuit action and given there is no way the class is going to be forced to go back to the old rule, there is nothing left to the case that will meaningfully impact on sailors in the class. [/SIZE]

I don't see anything to indicate that Kirby has dropped the trademark challenge:

http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pno=92057217&pty=CAN&eno=28

 

[SimonN]

The trademark was always a red herring and opportunistic. It has no bearing on the case and contrary to what Wess says, it isn't the only thing that could effect the sailors.

What I cannot understand is the animosity towards Kirby and the total disregard for how badly LPE treats the class, or to be more precise, their customers. The rule change and ILCA freezing out Kirby has removed one of the most important safeguards the class had. The builders can now hold the class to ransom in a way that they never could before. In fact, the rule change was all because LPE was holding the class to ransom and the association panicked. The only reason why the class exec pushed through the vote is because they thought supply was threatened. Now you have a situation where one builder can demand the class changes the rules and hold the class to ransom over it, or even make changes without getting the go ahead from the class. Why might they do that? Remember that they have clearly stated that they make their money from commercial sales (holiday companies, sailing schools etc) who don't care how the boats are built and fitted out so long as they look like Lasers. Remember, commercial sales are done direct - sales to the general public are through dealers, meaning less profit. I believe they would be OK with losing the racing market if the change meant making more profit from the rest. Before, that would have been in breach of the builders agreement if any of the boats were built out of class. So, one of the biggest safeguards is gone. The class will be OK for a while, but if LPE wins in court, expect changes to the Laser and worse customer support to the retail market.

 

[Wess]

Not even close to correct in my opinion.

The rule change is long done and duted and the sky did not fall. Nothing in the court case will change that. I actually wish Kirby had won and pursued the trademark litigation to the end becauswe had he won that (no more LASER trademark) and the rule change in place the class would be completely free to adopt the the Opti model and be free all the hanging-on free-loading turds.

 

[SimonN]

Not even close to correct in my opinion.

So tell me, what can be done if LPE decides to change the materials or the way they build the Laser. Before, the contract with Kirby forced builders to build all the boats they sold as "Lasers" in accordance with the builders manual, whether they were for the racing market or not. Now there is nothing to stop LPE doing whatever it wants. So the ILCA won't supply them with plaques. Big deal.....NOT. They have stated clearly enough that racing market isn't what they are after and it is pretty obvious why. It is a pain, because of the dealer network which eats margin and costs money to support. Or maybe we will see something potentially worse happen, with Lasers being built to 2 different specs depending on whether they are for racing (with plaque) or not. How do you stop the non compliant boast from mixing with complying?

So come on, Wess. Tell us how LPE can be kept in line now.

 

[Wess]

The only thing that keeps the class linked to LPE is the trademark. Class could allow Gouv to build boats according to the the builders manual in place of LPE or along side them but for the trademark Kirby sold to LPE. No reason this can't be set-up same way as Opti structure is.

 

[JimC]

And of course the Optimist model works so very well in keeping prices down and promoting equal boat speed racing...

 

[Wess]

And of course the Optimist model works so very well in keeping prices down and promoting equal boat speed racing...

Well if Kirby is as kind an altruistic as claimed, having only the best interest of class members at heart, he could sell his Torch in such an "Opti" model at a reasonable price. The builders manual takes care of equal speed by which I presume you mean OD racing.

But, I am not going to get sucked into this silliness again. You folks have been saying the sky is falling on the Laser class for years and how this was all such a slam dunk for Kirby and every year I think more and more what a good job the class association did and how much fun it is to sail in the class with a great group of folks that strangely don't waste their time posting here. I gotta learn that lesson.

Thankfully its almost time for Wednesday night beercan racing!

 

[torrid]

Just because LPE is a sleazy company doesn't mean I automatically support the other side and think everything they do is golden. Kirby in away created this mess when he "sold" the design rights. My personal impression is that he is acting as a figure head, a Col. Sanders for those wanting to sell Australian Fried Lasers.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

You guys still at it?

Kirby already lost. He gave up on his attempt to take down the trademark and there is no way the class is going to reverse course and go back to a rule that gave him the ability to hold us all hostage. That fat lady sang long ago. The class is free. Now its just a bunch of rich idiots fighting and with any luck they all take themselves out.

That's mighty rough on the class

[SIZE=10.5pt]Not my intent at all Gouv.[/SIZE]

....

[SIZE=10.5pt]My point was that since Kirby dropped the trademark lawsuit action and given there is no way the class is going to be forced to go back to the old rule, there is nothing left to the case that will meaningfully impact on sailors in the class. [/SIZE]

I don't see anything to indicate that Kirby has dropped the trademark challenge:

http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pno=92057217&pty=CAN&eno=28

Aghh!! SM123, you've ruined it. (Now Wess will need to find another bone to chew. Wess - read this!!! Another Bruce Kirby action! -- > http://www.mdd.uscourts.gov/Opinions/Opinions/Kirby-FrontierMemo.pdf)

The action against Karaya (Jersey) Limited was dropped, whereas the one against Velum Limited continues.

Here's 338 pages which has some part redacted, though lots of crossover the the contract case, which will determine if Rastegar / Crane will continue building Kirby's boat --> http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pno=92057217&pty=CAN&eno=21

 

[Wess]

You make this thing your life and you don't know that one of those is not like the other? Not the same implications out of each.

As I have always said, I would love to see Kirby take down his own trademark such that anyone in addition to LPE could make a boat called a Laser. It facilitates the Opti model. And under same Brucey could sell Torches for non-inflated prices. It could be one big happy family.