Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

[Board skiff]

So ISAF ultimately get to dictate what a Laser is (in terms of design and construction)? I can't think of many industries where the designer/builder/supplier/design rights holder/whatever hands over control of their product like that to a third party.

The problem is the whole thing is so fragmented that the builder doesn't have *enough* power. If Henry Ford had let the Detroit mayor control updates to the Model T, it would never have been the success it was.

A SMOD class association is a fan club, and its members are just like 1D/Beiber/Swift fans. They get to be entertained by parting with money. Nothing wrong with that, that's capitalist society. But they don't get to write the next song. You might consult them (possibly, for a gimmick) but you don't give them power. If they don't like the new album, they buy something else.

 

[Sailabout]

crikey even the j24 class upgraded their sails

 

[Bruce Hudson]

My best attempt to provide some answers etc to the above.

• $990 is in Australian dollars. (That's US$702 at the current exchange rate)
• There is a patent held by the ILCA for this sail (from a reliable source - I have not verified this)
• The ISAF did not have any input into the new sail design, this is 100% the decision of the members of the ILCA World Council
• The ILCA have increased their 'tariff' to cover the cost of the getting the patent. I don't know how much they get.
• The only change relating to Kirby's legal action that affected this was that PSA is no longer involved with the action, with LP's counterclaim against PSA being quashed. PSA previously stated that they could not approve the new sail while they had a legal case pending, following their legal advice.
• PSA were a big part of proposing and original design of the new sail - my understanding is that they commissioned the design with the ILCA World Council's full knowledge about 6 years ago.

With regards to Laser Performance and Performance Sailcraft Australia reaching consensus, yes they have - though my take is that PSA are no longer standing in the way. Also, given Tracy Usher's previous statements, it's fair to say he has had to make compromises on cost and on the distribution improvements that he wanted (I can see no change to the distribution model).

The distribution model is: Sail maker --> Builders --> Retailers --> Sailors, with builders also selling direct.

I'd estimate that there will be about 6000 of these sails made per year for the first year, assuming that they will be the standard sail shipped with new boats. Remember that not all boats are shipped with standard sails, and some fleet purchases (colleges etc) are not shipped with sails at all, with some fleets electing to purchase 'practice sails' independently to reduce costs. My figure assumes there is limited market resistance based on price. My estimated figure of 6000 for the first year is intended to be a low estimate, and is less than the current numbers sold. Laser Performance have yet to announce the new sail, though sell a 'training sail' which is possibly the same design for US$375. They list the current standard sail for US$565 and if the 25% increase in cost is true, that will make the new sail cost US$706 (they may round down to $695 - I would).

If in any way the new sail is perceived to be better performing than the old one, more will be sold (and visa versa). I say this knowing the intention is that they perform the same.

 

[Board skiff]

So Kirby has no say in changing the spec of the boat he claims to own the rights to?

And how and why would you patent a sail for a Laser? There'll still be replica versions even if they don't include whatever the patented feature is.

 

[Dex Sawash]

has to be tiny little OZ dollars

 

[torrid]

Supposed to go public Oct. 1, but apparently PSA jumped the gun. I would expect some sort of hasty announcement from LP soon.

 

[torrid]

the Laser certainly has come a long way from when it was the clear winner in a contest to build a singlehanded racing dinghy for under $700.

http://www.sail-world.com/The-American-Tea-Cup-Regatta---where-it-all-began/76372

They held a regatta at Playboy Club? And they had a Playboy Club in Wisconsin?

 

[dogwatch]

So ISAF ultimately get to dictate what a Laser is.

That's pretty much the opposite of what I said, which was that the class rules holder (ISAF in this case) ultimately decides but IME only makes changes when all parties agree.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

Laser Class Announces New Sail Design

The all new Standard Mark II Laser sail available on 1 November

9 September 2015​

The International Laser Class Association (ILCA) is pleased to announce the release of a completely new class-legal design for the Laser standard rig sail. The release marks the first time in over 40 years that the Laser sail design has been substantially updated.

Known as the Standard Mark II Sail, the new patented design is the result of thousands of hours of design work and on-the-water testing involving the Laser builders, the Association, two major sailmakers and some of the world’s top sailors.

The Mark II features bi-radial panels, a heavier 4.5 ounce cloth and optimized reinforcement patches, all intended to maximize the sail’s competitive life. The sail also features tapered battens with Velcro batten pocket closures, a larger window for improved visibility and a patented re-designed luff tube to eliminate wrinkles at the mast joint.

“This is a quantum leap forward for our class,” says ILCA President, Tracy Usher. “For several years the number one complaint about the Laser has been the outdated sail design. We’ve put a lot of time and effort into this new sail design and we’re really happy with the result.”

As with all changes to the Laser, the new sail has been carefully designed to be backwards compatible with the existing equipment, meaning it was not designed to provide improved performance. Instead, the Mark II promises improved durability and ease of use.

According to ILCA Technical Officer, Clive Humphris, “The main objective of the design project for the Mark II was to create a sail with equal performance to the existing sail, but with better durability. We worked very hard to ensure that the Mark II was not a faster sail and wouldn’t make all the existing sails obsolete overnight. The original Laser standard sail will continue to be available through authorized Laser dealers and we fully expect to see the two designs racing side-by-side for a number of years.”

The initial run of class-legal Mark II sails will be available starting 1 November 2015, with worldwide availability by early 2016. Because of the timing of the release, by agreement with International Sailing Federation (ISAF) the Mark II will not be used in the 2016 Olympic Games or any Olympic country qualifying events for 2015 or 2016.

The use of the sail will be controlled by the Notice of Race for each event until after the 2016 games. After that time, the Mark II will be allowed in all ILCA sanctioned regattas along with the original standard rig sail.

“Because many of the Olympic qualifying events have already occurred, we’ve agreed with ISAF that we shouldn’t make any major changes to the equipment for the 2016 games at this time,” says Usher. “Our goal is to have the Mark II sail available worldwide for the start of the next quadrennium (four year period), leading up to the 2020 games in Tokyo.”

In coordination with ISAF and the Laser Builders, ILCA will make further announcements about the availability of the Mark II sail and its use at events over the coming months.

 

[Board skiff]

So ISAF ultimately get to dictate what a Laser is.

That's pretty much the opposite of what I said, which was that the class rules holder (ISAF in this case) ultimately decides but IME only makes changes when all parties agree.

 
But none-the-less they can, in principal, force through changes against the will of the builders and those who have paid to own certain rights.

 

[couchsurfer]

....^^...nice looking piece of kit!

I remember when the sail changed from 3.2 to 3.8oz or whatever it is,was. The shape and firmness made the sail feel more like a finn sail,, actually having adjustable shape.

Methinks the extra boatbux are sorta justified. The heavier weight and radial cut and especially the larger corner patches will maintain a stable shape -much- longer.

I can't believe the stuff about being 'backwards compatible' with the sail it replaces. IIRC the (old) new sail pointed like a SOB over the new sails in mid breeze, and left them cold in a breeze. I imagine the radial cut will be more effective shape throughout the wind range,, and just like last time, the heavier cloth will prove better in stronger winds and gust response.

Likely it's pretty close enough to what it replaces for weekend warriors.

Funny that sailors who hope,plan to attend the 2016 olympics have to avoid it for now.

...any talk of a topsection to replace 70's technology? ...otherwise what's the damn point?? :mellow: <_<

 

[jeffers]

...any talk of a topsection to replace 70's technology? ...otherwise what's the damn point?? :mellow: <_<

There is a composite top section that is also ready or pretty close to being ready for release but it likely faces the same issue as the sail

 

[Bruce Hudson]

Motion Hearing set for 9/18/2015 02:00 PM in Courtroom Three, 141 Church St., New Haven, CT before Judge Jeffrey A. Meyer

Less than 2 days to go.

 

[Bruno]

The imperative to maintain obsolete performance and forbidding making old boats competitive with new ones coupled with the annoying manners of immature wannabe's wait its all coming back to me, rilly dont care anymore think I will buy a pram maclaren anyone?

 

[JimC]

Thread pool:

I don't think there's anything at this hearing that's central to the dispute, but I reckon the judge will allow the motion to seal certain exhibits and deny all the motions for summary judgement with an outside chance of delay until December.

Its worth remembering if summary judgement is denied, it tells us exactly stuff all about who's winning or losing.

My understanding of your legal system is that all the most that might happen at this hearing is that any claims which are utterly ridiculous will get chucked out. Utterly ridiculous claims do seem to be part of the US system, after all you bill the client at the same hourly rate whether there's a 50/50 chance of winning the point or one in ten thousand...

 

[Bill5]

It's been a while since anyone commented on boat/rigging/equipment supply. Is anybody aware of ongoing issues? Seems to me there was a problem in some geographies to obtain masts a while back.

 

[jeffers]

It's been a while since anyone commented on boat/rigging/equipment supply. Is anybody aware of ongoing issues? Seems to me there was a problem in some geographies to obtain masts a while back.

That was a few years back now (certainly in the UK). As far as I am aware there are no issues getting parts at the moment.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

Thread pool:

I don't think there's anything at this hearing that's central to the dispute, but I reckon the judge will allow the motion to seal certain exhibits and deny all the motions for summary judgement with an outside chance of delay until December.

Its worth remembering if summary judgement is denied, it tells us exactly stuff all about who's winning or losing.

My understanding of your legal system is that all the most that might happen at this hearing is that any claims which are utterly ridiculous will get chucked out. Utterly ridiculous claims do seem to be part of the US system, after all you bill the client at the same hourly rate whether there's a 50/50 chance of winning the point or one in ten thousand...

What's 'central' about this motions hearing is that we can't see past it. Once it's out of the way we will then be able to see the next step or steps.

Agree that you can't read anything into the four motions for a summary judgement, and the single motion to dismiss. There is always the possibility of delay, the judge could fall ill or a number of things could cause further delay.

 

[Sailabout]

just been to Southampton and La Rochelle boat shows

who's Laser, gone from the world??

 

[Bruce Hudson]

Well?

A notice of appearance was posted earlier today. It may take a day or so for more information to be posted - the shortest time was same day, the longest from memory was about five.