Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

[JimC]

Fairly silly question really.

Will there be a specific levy on sails exclusively and only to recover the cost of the patent? Bet the answer is "no, WTF would you bother to cost that out and administer it separately"

Will the cost of the patent be recovered from ILCA income? Bet the answer is "sure, the magic fairies won't pay for it."

Presumably the ILCA view was that in order to protect and encourage the single design principle that has been central to the success of the Laser it was advantageous to add extra protection to the new design. If so then its not inappropriate to spend CA money on the patent.

Unlike the highly dubious shenanigans that went on around the ballot I don't really see this as dodgy in any way.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

Fairly silly question really.

Will there be a specific levy on sails exclusively and only to recover the cost of the patent? Bet the answer is "no, WTF would you bother to cost that out and administer it separately"

Will the cost of the patent be recovered from ILCA income? Bet the answer is "sure, the magic fairies won't pay for it."

Presumably the ILCA view was that in order to protect and encourage the single design principle that has been central to the success of the Laser it was advantageous to add extra protection to the new design. If so then its not inappropriate to spend CA money on the patent.

Unlike the highly dubious shenanigans that went on around the ballot I don't really see this as dodgy in any way.

Actually, according to my source there is a levy, however nobody on the ILCA WC has confirmed this publically, nor is it mentioned in any minutes available to the membership, or in any release, newsletter or magazine.

IMJ, it's reflective of a ILCA WC unwilling or unable to be open in it's communication.

I thought it would be an opportunity for Andy to comment. It's relevant because otherwise those interested in Laser sailing are left to speculate why the new sails are such a high cost.

 

[torrid]

I would think the ILCA has an annual budget for equipment development, and presumably the new sail and carbon spar would fall under this. As for the actual patent, something like that is on the order of $10k.

 

[SM123]

Perhaps my searching skills are sub-par, or perhaps it hasn't been published yet, but I can't find any relevant US patents.

Also, $10k might get you a US patent, but that won't help you in Europe or Australia.

Finally, in the USA, there are two types of patents, "design" patents and "utility" patents. Which is this?

 

[Bruce Hudson]

... I can't find any relevant US patents.

http://www.google.com/patents/US8739721

My understanding is that the ILCA paid considerably more than US$10K for the patent. I seem to recall being told a figure close to US$20K, however can't seem to find a note of it (maybe I was told verbally).

 

[ojfd]

... I can't find any relevant US patents.

http://www.google.com/patents/US8739721

Filing date: Dec 9, 2010 (!) No conspiracy here.

 

[torrid]

Perhaps my searching skills are sub-par, or perhaps it hasn't been published yet, but I can't find any relevant US patents.

Also, $10k might get you a US patent, but that won't help you in Europe or Australia.

Finally, in the USA, there are two types of patents, "design" patents and "utility" patents. Which is this?

There are both. Here is the "design" patent. Not really sure of the value of a design patent.

https://www.google.com/patents/USD664493

 

[SM123]

There are both. Here is the "design" patent. Not really sure of the value of a design patent.

https://www.google.com/patents/USD664493

It is a design patent that Apple used against Samsung to get an award of hundreds of millions of dollars.

 

[Emilio Castelli]

I thought it would be an opportunity for Andy to comment. It's relevant because otherwise those interested in Laser sailing are left to speculate why the new sails are such a high cost.

The new sail costs less than the old one. Clearly it's more expensive to produce so the margins must be smaller.

If it also lasts longer we got ourselves a good deal.

E

 

[Wess]

I thought it would be an opportunity for Andy to comment. It's relevant because otherwise those interested in Laser sailing are left to speculate why the new sails are such a high cost.

The new sail costs less than the old one. Clearly it's more expensive to produce so the margins must be smaller.

If it also lasts longer we got ourselves a good deal.

E

Oh stop with your logic. Its the holiday season; let the fruitcake live!

 

[Major Tom]

Perhaps my searching skills are sub-par, or perhaps it hasn't been published yet, but I can't find any relevant US patents.

Also, $10k might get you a US patent, but that won't help you in Europe or Australia.

Finally, in the USA, there are two types of patents, "design" patents and "utility" patents. Which is this?

There are both. Here is the "design" patent. Not really sure of the value of a design patent.

https://www.google.com/patents/USD664493

Not quite sure I follow the logic of this design, from experience having a vertical panel up the luff from the tack to the horizontal seam improves the reaction of downhaul to the sail. Without it, the fullness blows back in the lower half of the sail as the cloth bias is perpendicular to the Cunningham load, and in the top half of the sail the fullness is pulled forewards as it should be and the leach twists open. This means the upper and lower leach almost contradict each other.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

Not quite sure I follow the logic of this design, from experience having a vertical panel up the luff from the tack to the horizontal seam improves the reaction of downhaul to the sail. Without it, the fullness blows back in the lower half of the sail as the cloth bias is perpendicular to the Cunningham load, and in the top half of the sail the fullness is pulled forewards as it should be and the leach twists open. This means the upper and lower leach almost contradict each other.

Normally in sailing, a sail is designed to be the fastest possible. In this case, the objective was to make the new sail have the same performance as the old one.

I thought it would be an opportunity for Andy to comment. It's relevant because otherwise those interested in Laser sailing are left to speculate why the new sails are such a high cost.

The new sail costs less than the old one. Clearly it's more expensive to produce so the margins must be smaller.

If it also lasts longer we got ourselves a good deal.

E

It's only less expensive in North America. In other markets, the cost is very similar to the older sail.

Those who believe that the sail is overpriced, compare the cost of mass production and the cost of the replica sails with the cost of both the new and the old one.

Of even more concern is an ILCA that is unwilling or unable to be open in it's communication. A symptom of this ineffectiveness is the taking of 5 years to introduce the new sail.

 

[Wess]

Of even more concern is an ILCA that is unwilling or unable to be open in it's communication. A symptom of this ineffectiveness is the taking of 5 years to introduce the new sail.

Cannt be consistent? Previously incorrectly insist that it was LPE that delayed the sail... now its ILCA. Good grief; keep trying and eventually the right answer will emerge.

Have to laugh about the other point. You hate, hate, hate them. You are not a member, don't pay any dues; but still voted in class matters, and then you complain like a rejected teenage girl... "why won't you talk to me."

 

[Wavedancer II]

To get this thread back on track,

when can we expect something legal, even if it's another postponement, from the judicial system?

 

[JimC]

You need to wait for the current postponement to end first. All waiting for a judge. He's supposed to hand down a decision within 6 months of the hearing but according to the court records often doesn't.

Your legal system is amazingly broken seppos.

 

[bluelaser2]

'Your legal system is amazingly broken"

Indeed, the law on design patents is even more fucked than most people can imagine. As it currently stands, if someone has a design patent on a car hood ornament, and it's found to be infringed, that patentee must be awarded 100% of the entire profits made on the whole car. Not may be awarded, MUST be awarded. There is a single appellate court for patent case in the United States, and this is what they say the law demands.

I. Shit.You. Not.

ILCA was smart to get the design patent. They are fast and easy to get, and obviously weapons of economic mass destruction once you have one in hand. Makes the multi-billion dollar utility patent trolling racket look like Sunday bingo....and soon enough the results will tell.

You can read some Supreme Court amici briefs on it here. This state of affairs probably has a year or two left to run before the Supreme Court steps in. At least in the area of patents, the Supreme Court is been on the ball and strongly aligned internally- many 9-0 votes on patent cases lately.

http://patentlyo.com/patent/2016/01/functional-patents-disgorgement.html

 

[Bruce Hudson]

From Laser World, December 2015:

A motion was passed to curtail the hard copy printing and mailing of LaserWorld magazine and use the cost savings to enhance the ILCA’s online media presence. With this modification, the 2016 budget was then approved.

Exactly where are the online enhancements?

Right now the ILCA website sports a main menu that does not display properly and has broken links to images.

Cost of engaging enthusiastic volunteers to fix this = zero, which incidentally is the same cost as converting the site to a modern responsive design. Maybe the ILCA's website isn't considered important.

Is something broken with the ILCA? What other conclusion is there to reach?

In the mean-time, still nothing from the courts, so we continue to wait.

 

[Wess]

Hey, here is an idea. Lets talk sailing.

Anybody using the new class full rig sail yet?

I am a bit of a cheapo. My first Laser was free. So was my second. Just had to rebuild them. My current boat cost me $500. Its about ready to be a beach boat. But I never spent more than this on a Laser. So the sails are a big part of the program costs when not doing club racing that allows the use of the generic sails.

Yesterday I did some frostbiting and used the new class legal full rig sail. It cost more than my boat. But sure looks nicely designed and constructed and offering more value than the original version.

Late too the course so little time to play and off we go on first upwind leg. Sail is not much different upwind but downwind.... YIKES!! I round the ww mark in 2nd and ease the outhaul as normal, let out the main and ease the vang to its preset (boom just about or higher than 90 to the mast). This take most of the bend out of the mast and after pulling up the board I look up at the sail for the first time while trying to connect by the lee and... THERE IS A HUGE VERTICAL FOLD DOWN THE LUFF. FUGLY (and slow... lost a bunch of spots; ugh!)

Cunningham all the way off. Tried everything to get a decent shape back but the only way was to add lots of vang to bend the mast which give a tight leech. Really changes the feel of the boat downwind by the lee. Be interested to see if this sail stretches with time and settings go more or less back to normal.

If you happen to be more into sailing Lasers than rich folks trying to take more of your money for a centuries old napkin and taking volunteers to court, get out and give the new class sail a go before your first important regatta.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Laser class sailors are evil, sky is falling, rich grey hair guy w napkin is God thread!

 

[tillerman]

Hey, here is an idea. Lets talk sailing.

Anybody using the new class full rig sail yet?

I am a bit of a cheapo. My first Laser was free. So was my second. Just had to rebuild them. My current boat cost me $500. Its about ready to be a beach boat. But I never spent more than this on a Laser. So the sails are a big part of the program costs when not doing club racing that allows the use of the generic sails.

Yesterday I did some frostbiting and used the new class legal full rig sail. It cost more than my boat. But sure looks nicely designed and constructed and offering more value than the original version.

Late too the course so little time to play and off we go on first upwind leg. Sail is not much different upwind but downwind.... YIKES!! I round the ww mark in 2nd and ease the outhaul as normal, let out the main and ease the vang to its preset (boom just about or higher than 90 to the mast). This take most of the bend out of the mast and after pulling up the board I look up at the sail for the first time while trying to connect by the lee and... THERE IS A HUGE VERTICAL FOLD DOWN THE LUFF. FUGLY (and slow... lost a bunch of spots; ugh!)

Cunningham all the way off. Tried everything to get a decent shape back but the only way was to add lots of vang to bend the mast which give a tight leech. Really changes the feel of the boat downwind by the lee. Be interested to see if this sail stretches with time and settings go more or less back to normal.

If you happen to be more into sailing Lasers than rich folks trying to take more of your money for a centuries old napkin and taking volunteers to court, get out and give the new class sail a go before your first important regatta.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Laser class sailors are evil, sky is falling, rich grey hair guy w napkin is God thread!

Wess - that is disgraceful. How dare you talk about actually sailing Lasers on this thread.

Don't you know that this thread is purely for people who want to whine about how evil the people involved in designing Lasers or building Lasers or selling Lasers or organizing Laser racing really are and how they are all screwing us out of our money or wasting our money or are incompetent or all of the above.

Please get with the program. Make up some story about something bad that somebody in charge of running our game hasn't done but might conceivably have done, and then challenge them to confirm it and to reveal how much they are being paid. And then when they don't respond to your post in ten minutes, accuse them of lack of transparency and being unfit for their office etc. etc. etc. blah blah blah.

Come on Wess. Pull yourself together. You can do it.

 

[BobBill]

Wess. Ship in bottle it?