Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

[Wess]

The question about counterfeit Kirby sailboats should have been answered in a matter of minutes after the order work was presented to the judge.

If it is fact that Kirby has valid contracts and those contracts were violated, every boat snuck into consumer hands had a series of illegal activities associated with its distribution and sale

Or it didn't

The fact this issue remains unresolved is a travesty.

There is no point in having counterfeiting laws and paying enforcement personnel and for court systems if nothing happens when a person files for protection of his rights.

Or

Kirby has no contracts and no rights and should be found liable for wasting the time of others.

As for me ?

I am afraid to purchase anything that may have come from LP. I am an old man and do not care to spend the rest of my life in jail

Do the new rules of sailing allow for such a hail at the windward mark or upon crossing the start line: "Stop; you are under arrest!"

Should we call the cops to come to the Easter regatta?

Instead of a DSQ, you get led away in handcuffs?!

I mean I know Texas is tough territory but I thought with Teddy out and The Donald in you guys might be a bit more tolerant of white collar / grey hair shenanigans.

 

[Wess]

No dumbass! This has absolutely nothing to do with your silly sailboat races. The counterfeiting, distribution, importation. promotion, even ownership of known counterfeit products carries nasty federal Penalties.

You and your friends in the ILCA ( and I am a member and past officer and a certified measured) conspired to allow allegedly counterfeit products to be labeled as legitimate and sold in the USA.

Certainly if the courts decide our association is liable for its participation in counterfeiting there will be penalties. Do those penalties include jail time for the conspirators?? Probably not those like me who only have legitimate boats and have refused to participate in the distribution of counterfeit boats but

Guys like you who are cheering on the class as it does everything it can to help break the law???

Oh my!!

I just cannot risk being fined or jailed because I helped.

The US authorities really should do their jobs and clear up which boats are real and which are counterfeit.

Wess...

What happens if somebody in Annapolis starts selling Terrapins TShirts without paying the royalties to the University??

These alleged boats cost hundreds as much as the most expensive t shirts.

The fact the boats are alleged to be counterfeit has been well publicized.

How many votes does a politician get for nailing "People at Yacht Clubs conspiring with a middle Eastern businessman to distribute counterfeit items" ????

Those contracts better have been worthless for the last forty years or Trump will be building walls around every lake and bay with a Laser.

And you fleet members will be paying for the wall all around the Anapolis coastline

..

Meanwhile

Our 2016 Wednesday night Laser and Sunfish races start tonight and every boat in our Laser fleet has had its fees paid to Kirby.

I don't know if we will let an alleged counterfeit boat join in or be stored at our club until the government rules on the accusations.

I hope the issue never comes up.

Well I wasn't fishing for you but OK...

Yes I cann easily see how class officers and volunteers could end up in jail. :blink: That is why I am so scared and cann't believe they haven't arrested the whole bunch of us even if just for the turtle T-shirts. h34r:

I just didn't realize Texas followed the Colorado legalization pathway. Fun times!

BTW, how do you find those alleged counterfeit boats? Do you have a counterfeit boat sniffing bunny?



Hide behind the wall and then run away, run away, run away...

 

[tillerman]

Don't worry people.

The maximum penalty for "conspiracy to counterfeit" is only 10 years in a federal penitentiary.

Look on the bright side. You will miss all 8 years of the Trump presidency.

 

[SimonN]

Forgetting Gouv's criminal activity theories for a moment (nobody is going away for this) what is undeniable is that the ILCA made a total hash of the vote. As pointed out above, there were many discrepancies and much misinformation, although it is hard to say how much was deliberate and how much was simple incompetence. Add to that what appears at times to have been conflicting legal advise, I still believe that the association has much explaining to do.

 

[tillerman]

I am shocked to discover that anyone anyone would run an election by giving misinformation to the voters.

 

[torrid]

Let's make Laser sailing great again!

 

[tillerman]

We don't need to make Laser sailing great. Laser sailing has never stopped being great.

 

[JimC]

What's their motivation to do their jobs quickly when they earn so much more money by letting cases drag on for years whole they argue about how many angels can legally dance on the head of a pin?

 

[JimC]

what is undeniable is that the ILCA made a total hash of the vote.

Au contraire Simon, they managed it very successfully to manipulate the electorate to get the result they wanted.

 

[Wess]

Don't worry people.

The maximum penalty for "conspiracy to counterfeit" is only 10 years in a federal penitentiary.

Look on the bright side. You will miss all 8 years of the Trump presidency.

Tiller Man's writing has to win post of the thread! Lock it. The ILCA vote was easy compared to this year's election. Can I write in BK or would that upset the birther movement?

Absolutely agree Jim C - Afterall, the electorate is absolutely up in arms over the whole thing and demanding a recount or another vote and a proposal to reverse the rule changes was made at the... Oh wait...well there is at least 2 people here on SA that maybe once sailed Laser or at least knows what one looks like and they are upset. And one day they are going to join the class and do something about it, just you wait and see...

 

[Sailabout]

I guess the new Kirby boat will be all carbon as people have to run down the road with the Olympic Torch I notice

 

[Wess]

I guess the new Kirby boat will be all carbon as people have to run down the road with the Olympic Torch I notice

You mean we have to light the BK Torches on fire? That seems extreme even for counterfeit boats!

 

[JimC]

Afterall, the electorate is absolutely up in arms over the whole thing and demanding a recount or another vote

Well, there we see the limitations of the democratic system. I've been a member of one trade union or another for the last 25 years or so and for most of that time "my" union executive has spouted off political BS that is quite unrepresentative of the majority of their members. For the most part the rest of us are grateful for that subset of what they do that is valuable to everyone, and ignore the excesses as the price we pay for having them do the useful stuff as no-one else is standing up. Clubs, CAs and other voluntary orgs can be much the same.

But as I said a little earlier I'm beginning to think that as the US legal system seems quite incapable of delivering justice, there might have been an argument for saying "b*****r right and wrong, we'll pick what looks easiest in the short term". Whether that's what happened I have no idea.

 

[Wess]

Afterall, the electorate is absolutely up in arms over the whole thing and demanding a recount or another vote

Well, there we see the limitations of the democratic system. I've been a member of one trade union or another for the last 25 years or so and for most of that time "my" union executive has spouted off political BS that is quite unrepresentative of the majority of their members. For the most part the rest of us are grateful for that subset of what they do that is valuable to everyone, and ignore the excesses as the price we pay for having them do the useful stuff as no-one else is standing up. Clubs, CAs and other voluntary orgs can be much the same.

But as I said a little earlier I'm beginning to think that as the US legal system seems quite incapable of delivering justice, there might have been an argument for saying "b*****r right and wrong, we'll pick what looks easiest in the short term". Whether that's what happened I have no idea.

That's not an unreasonable view and being serious for a moment and noting that I can only talk to the general sense I get from folks I sail with...

The overwhelming view seems to be:

1.) We sail, not enforce or judge commercial disputes, get us out of the middle of this, keep supply of boats and support for major regattas, and don't lose Olympic status (not the folks I sail with but those class members more active in high level sailing).

2.) And then w regards to the dispute its;

a.) don't really know the detailed facts but BK designed the boat he deserves to get paid for it (if he hasn't already... which usually leads to discussion of how much how long for heirs??)

b.) an understanding of the whole PSA/GS/BK alignment and global consolidation implications which leads to... let the court decide - get us out of the middle.

Honestly I think the overarching view of most who have taken the time to have some basic understanding of the facts, and have a vested interest as class members and sailors, are... and it aligns with how the vote went, how folks still act, and what the class association did its:

get us out of the middle of a commercial dispute, get it in the courts where it belongs and let the court decide.

Honestly think that what most informed and involved (class members) folks want, how they voted, and what the class did and continues to do with full support of its members.

But that is too serious a post for this place!

 

[Bruce Hudson]

Is it the will of those who support the ILCA no matter what to make a joke over Bruce Kirby being disenfranchised with his rights as defined by the signed contracts? So far, the courts have been satisfied that there is a case to be heard.

Rather than rehashing the same old stuff, the latest moves and news surround the tactics of Laser Performance's move into the Asian market - and also their ability to properly service the North American market. What's happening on the ground - is there a new shortage of parts right now? What about the delay in getting the new sails? I'm wondering why there was a delay - if I had to guess, I'd be wondering if the sailmakers were getting paid on time. And if LP has screwed Hyde and Norths relationship - who their next victim will be - Gaastra?

There was a release a couple of weeks ago that was very important to the legal action:

OneLaser Update Q1 2016 14 April 2016

Dear Employees, Customers, Suppliers, Consumers and Stakeholders,

Further LaserPerformance’s communication of January 4, 2016 (attached), we take this opportunity to update you on progress made in the first quarter of 2016 towards achieving our OneLaser strategy:

• LaserPerformance Services has been established in Hong Kong to support LaserPerformance group of companies for sourcing and product development. A team of six design and quality engineers are now active, supported by a logistics team. It is expected that the team will expand to support a unified global program of improved sourcing and accelerated product development.
• To consolidate and unify management and operations in North America, LaserPerformance has established a logistics and warehousing center near its offices in Connecticut. Commencing May 1 LaserPerformance products will start shipping products from its Connecticut warehouse and phasing out shipments from Portsmouth, Rhode Island. The move will be complete by May 31. The new state of the art logistics facility is located at: 30 Railroad Avenue, West Haven, CT 06516
• A new direct delivery program, now launched in the US and to be expanded globally, will allow faster delivery time by directly shipping boats and parts from the manufacturer directly to the dealer and customer network. LaserPerformance is starting this program with fleet and dealer container direct sales.
• US-based Vanguard Sail Boats has ceased production of the Sunfish, z420 and CFJ. We are working with our new suppliers to resupply these boats. Already shipments of injection-molded CFJs are on their way direct to customers. We expect Sunfish to be supplied during the summer and z420 by early fall. We will communicate to you specific dates as soon as we know them. Our goal is to have all the three boats injection-molded by the end of the year. We are excited with this change, enabling us to become a sustainable suppler.
• We are pleased to announce that new competitively-priced Mark II training sails will be available to customers for June delivery.
• LaserPerformance globally installed and is now using Netsuite for all its operations. Netsuite is a powerful cloud-based system that provides a suite of integrated applications to plan, collect, store, manage and interpret data from many business activities including sales operations, finance, logistics, HR, ecommerce and customer service. We are already seeing improved efficiencies in processes, collaboration and data management. Linked to Netsuite, LaserPerformance has implemented Arena, a cloud-based solution for recording and managing bill of materials (BOM) for sourcing and product development.

We are excited about these and other initiatives in support of OneLaser. Our significant investment in new technologies, new premises and new processes will provide for optimized services in coming years. LaserPerformance will continue to update our community of progress made and new initiatives throughout the year.

Source = http://us12.campaign-archive1.com/?u=03f9cad9b1e0946205195ce4a&id=f07db184a4&e=174790523f

Have Laser Performance moved their North American to Hong Kong / China?

Wondering how this impacts FarEast Boats - who are LP's Chinese agents - and now LP seems to be intent to build in Asia, if FarEast's role has changed and if yes to what?

Again - the ILCA has yet to inform it's membership what's happening - though this could be because they are not aware of the latest LP moves - or if they are aware - are they approving a new builder?

If the ILCA are supporting what in essence is the appointment of a new builder in a new territory - the ILCA may be ignoring their contractual obligation for Kirby to make the appointment of new builders. (This is separate to the fundamental class rule change - there is a signed contract). It would be extremely unlikely that Kirby would approve LP to build in Asia, especially while the court case continues.

Wondering if anyone else following these developments has anything to add or can answer my questions.

 

[JimC]

So far, the courts have been satisfied that there is a case to be heard.

I fear that means exactly nothing. If you're in the IT business, you may be familiar with the SCO case, which is still dragging on 13 years after it kicked off, and that was a case in which there was never a shred of evidence of anything wrong being done.

 

[tillerman]

Is it the will of those who support the ILCA no matter what to make a joke over Bruce Kirby being disenfranchised with his rights as defined by the signed contracts? So far, the courts have been satisfied that there is a case to be heard.

Rather than rehashing the same old stuff, the latest moves and news surround the tactics of Laser Performance's move into the Asian market - and also their ability to properly service the North American market. What's happening on the ground - is there a new shortage of parts right now? What about the delay in getting the new sails? I'm wondering why there was a delay - if I had to guess, I'd be wondering if the sailmakers were getting paid on time. And if LP has screwed Hyde and Norths relationship - who their next victim will be - Gaastra?

There was a release a couple of weeks ago that was very important to the legal action:

OneLaser Update Q1 2016 14 April 2016

Dear Employees, Customers, Suppliers, Consumers and Stakeholders,

Further LaserPerformance’s communication of January 4, 2016 (attached), we take this opportunity to update you on progress made in the first quarter of 2016 towards achieving our OneLaser strategy:

• LaserPerformance Services has been established in Hong Kong to support LaserPerformance group of companies for sourcing and product development. A team of six design and quality engineers are now active, supported by a logistics team. It is expected that the team will expand to support a unified global program of improved sourcing and accelerated product development.
• To consolidate and unify management and operations in North America, LaserPerformance has established a logistics and warehousing center near its offices in Connecticut. Commencing May 1 LaserPerformance products will start shipping products from its Connecticut warehouse and phasing out shipments from Portsmouth, Rhode Island. The move will be complete by May 31. The new state of the art logistics facility is located at: 30 Railroad Avenue, West Haven, CT 06516
• A new direct delivery program, now launched in the US and to be expanded globally, will allow faster delivery time by directly shipping boats and parts from the manufacturer directly to the dealer and customer network. LaserPerformance is starting this program with fleet and dealer container direct sales.
• US-based Vanguard Sail Boats has ceased production of the Sunfish, z420 and CFJ. We are working with our new suppliers to resupply these boats. Already shipments of injection-molded CFJs are on their way direct to customers. We expect Sunfish to be supplied during the summer and z420 by early fall. We will communicate to you specific dates as soon as we know them. Our goal is to have all the three boats injection-molded by the end of the year. We are excited with this change, enabling us to become a sustainable suppler.
• We are pleased to announce that new competitively-priced Mark II training sails will be available to customers for June delivery.
• LaserPerformance globally installed and is now using Netsuite for all its operations. Netsuite is a powerful cloud-based system that provides a suite of integrated applications to plan, collect, store, manage and interpret data from many business activities including sales operations, finance, logistics, HR, ecommerce and customer service. We are already seeing improved efficiencies in processes, collaboration and data management. Linked to Netsuite, LaserPerformance has implemented Arena, a cloud-based solution for recording and managing bill of materials (BOM) for sourcing and product development.

We are excited about these and other initiatives in support of OneLaser. Our significant investment in new technologies, new premises and new processes will provide for optimized services in coming years. LaserPerformance will continue to update our community of progress made and new initiatives throughout the year.

Source = http://us12.campaign-archive1.com/?u=03f9cad9b1e0946205195ce4a&id=f07db184a4&e=174790523f

Have Laser Performance moved their North American to Hong Kong / China?

Wondering how this impacts FarEast Boats - who are LP's Chinese agents - and now LP seems to be intent to build in Asia, if FarEast's role has changed and if yes to what?

Again - the ILCA has yet to inform it's membership what's happening - though this could be because they are not aware of the latest LP moves - or if they are aware - are they approving a new builder?

If the ILCA are supporting what in essence is the appointment of a new builder in a new territory - the ILCA may be ignoring their contractual obligation for Kirby to make the appointment of new builders. (This is separate to the fundamental class rule change - there is a signed contract). It would be extremely unlikely that Kirby would approve LP to build in Asia, especially while the court case continues.

Wondering if anyone else following these developments has anything to add or can answer my questions.

What does this have to do with the ILCA? What LP has announced is that they are moving the production of Sunfish, z420s and CFJs from Rhode Island to China. As far as I know the Lasers that LP sells in North America are still being built by LP in England, as they have been for the last few years.

I wouldn't expect the LASER class to need to say anything about this. Although I did read that the International President of the Sunfish Class has visited the factory in China and has reported back to the members of his class about what is going on and his views on the manufacturing operation.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

What does this have to do with the ILCA? What LP has announced is that they are moving the production of Sunfish, z420s and CFJs from Rhode Island to China. As far as I know the Lasers that LP sells in North America are still being built by LP in England, as they have been for the last few years.

I wouldn't expect the LASER class to need to say anything about this. Although I did read that the International President of the Sunfish Class has visited the factory in China and has reported back to the members of his class about what is going on and his views on the manufacturing operation.

OK. I'll put this another way.

What is the physical location of the North American Laser moulds?

I heard from a reliable source that they have arrived in Shanghai, why is that?

(I was in Shanghai last year.)

That being the case, if there is a new builder in a new market - either the ILCA knows (and has or has not approved), or they don't know (but should).

Another issue is that the ILCA World Council does not keep proper minutes of it's meetings - or if they do, they are kept secret from the membership.

 

[tillerman]

What does this have to do with the ILCA? What LP has announced is that they are moving the production of Sunfish, z420s and CFJs from Rhode Island to China. As far as I know the Lasers that LP sells in North America are still being built by LP in England, as they have been for the last few years.

I wouldn't expect the LASER class to need to say anything about this. Although I did read that the International President of the Sunfish Class has visited the factory in China and has reported back to the members of his class about what is going on and his views on the manufacturing operation.

OK. I'll put this another way.

What is the physical location of the North American Laser moulds?

I heard from a reliable source that they have arrived in Shanghai, why is that?

(I was in Shanghai last year.)

That being the case, if there is a new builder in a new market - either the ILCA knows (and has or has not approved), or they don't know (but should).

Another issue is that the ILCA World Council does not keep proper minutes of it's meetings - or if they do, they are kept secret from the membership.

OK. I thought you were commenting on the LP press release. I couldn't see anything in there about moving Laser production to Asia or LP entering the Asian market.

Sounds like you have a whole new juicy conspiracy theory there that should keep this thread humming along for a few thousand more posts. Well done!

But I am working on the theory that if I didn't read it in the ILCA World Council minutes then it never happened.

It does make for a quiet life.

 

[Wess]

Sounds like you have a whole new juicy conspiracy theory there that should keep this thread humming along for a few thousand more posts. Well done!
But I am working on the theory that if I didn't read it in the ILCA World Council minutes then it never happened.

It does make for a quiet life.

Oh that cann't do. Have you not heard the sky is falling? Off to jail for anyone sailing a new Laser. Fines and sanctions for volunteers. No more supply of boats. The Laser class is dead (they just don't know it yet) don't you know?

I shiver with fear every time I go to the club or approach the start or finish line that the po-po may be there with blue lights flashing and guns drawn. I am sailing today and I am scared. Scared I say!!!

And that's why I support The Donald. Being a birther he will not allow this crazy Canadian grey hair (real hair... even worse yet) to disrupt our game and for sure he must support off-shoring of production to China. Finally! Cheap communist Lasers (I'll take mine in red please) for the masses and increased profits for the lawyers, grey hairs and other 1%-ers to share. I just wish I knew how to get on that merry-go-round.