Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Isn't it okay for anyone at all to buy any legal product abroad and then re-sell it?

If the reseller is a dealer for laser, they could get in contractual trouble...

As Rolex has US Customs only allowing one Rolex per passenger to enter the USA.

Americans must buy a new Rolex from an authorized Rolex dealer in USA and not import more than one.

 

[IPLore]

Betcha the judge has a copy.

Of course the judge has a copy.

But what about Gannt, who appears to know what is in the affidavits? What's his connection?

I think Gantt just makes stuff up.

SM123, in PSA's successful motion to strike Crane's accusations, they quote Crane's affidavit directly and provide a summary of it's contents. I found it revealing.

It can be found here: http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/download.html?id=167193467&z=90fc3276

Also revealing IMJ were the accusations contained in LP's counterclaim. As it turned out, LP was unable to produce evidence that supported their accusations.

Gannt,

thanks for pointing this out.

I don't see anything particularly revealing in that document. All it seems to show is that LPE attempts to use evidence from Crane that doesn't really mean as much as LPE tries to imply.

What else would you expect in a lawsuit? Every side tries to portray the evidence and the law in the light that benefits them most: frequently being selective on the parts of the law and parts of the evidence that they choose to quote.

I agree with you SM123. What's revealing is that we have Andy Roy from the ILCA world council coming on this forum and implies that Crane does what his employer says, then saying that Crane "gets it" - whatever that means.

What's revealing is that Crane says that PSA “knew and approved of Kevlar’s actions.” while providing no evidence to support such a claim. Either Crane has demonstrated that he is prepared to lie on behalf of his employer, or at least 'over reach'; that he is more enthusiastic in backing some 'creative' accusations that LP made than Andy would like you to believe. (My take is that Crane is an enthusiastic supporter of not adhering to the builder's contract signed in 2005, of cutting Kirby out of the picture)

Either way, Crane's supporting documentation fell short of his objective - to involve PSA in Kirby's legal action against LP.

And we have a ILCA World Council member making public statements in support of Bill Crane 'getting it'??

With respect Gannt, I think you are unfamiliar with how the affidavit process works in US adversarial legal system. If LP discovered PS blades being sold in the US then LP's lawyers are absolutely going to include language in the affidavit.......it would have been phrased something like

"Upon information and belief, PSA knew and approved of Kevlars actions"

It's a reasonable belief and any half way decent lawyer acting for LP would include it in the affidavit that their client signs.

In a complex case you start off by including every possible avenue of claim and then let the discovery process and the rulings winnow it down.

To my eye, there was nothing over enthusiastic about the brief extract from the afadavit. Both sides would have submitted strongly worded affidavits including every possible suggestion of wrong doing by the opposing party. The BKI parties suggested there was collusion and tortious interference at meetings they didn't attend. Absolutely you include everything you suspect......and then you try and back it up.

The judge will then use a set of well tried and tested rules to determine which suspicions are allowed in front of a jury (or the judge)and which are not.

But it is key to get all your suspicions out there. Even if they are disallowed, a good litigation lawyer is painting a picture for the judge. At every conference and with every motion you are trying to set the stage.

The judge knows how the contest is played and half of the claims and motions will be gone by the time a case goes to court.

This one will not go to court. It will settle. ( my bet, not knowledge) The only surprise is that it is taking so long to get down to brass tacks . The longer this goes on the losers in this process are LP and GS.

The bulk of the documents will remain sealed leaving the fans on this forum none the wiser.

 

[tillerman]

Don't you just hate it when IPLore injects common sense and reason into this discussion?

What makes it worse is that he clearly understands how legal disputes like this work and why the lawyers do what they do.

Why can't he just make stuff up like the rest of us on this thread?

 

[SM123]

If LP discovered PS blades being sold in the US then LP's lawyers are absolutely going to include language in the affidavit.......it would have been phrased something like

Upon information and belief, PSA knew and approved of Kevlars actions"

....

The bulk of the documents will remain sealed leaving the fans on this forum none the wiser.
LP's lawyers are absolutely going to include language in the affidavit.......it would have been phrased something like

Uh, no, that's not how it works. The "information and belief" would be found in a motion. The affidavits are supposed to give facts, so "belief" has no useful place in it.

To put it another way, the affidavit should provide a factual basis for the claim of "information and belief". In this case, there was insufficient factual basis for the "information and and belief" that PSA was knowingly selling Laser parts in the USA.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

Don't you just hate it when IPLore injects common sense and reason into this discussion?

What makes it worse is that he clearly understands how legal disputes like this work and why the lawyers do what they do.

Why can't he just make stuff up like the rest of us on this thread?

You really want to align yourself with a known troll like IPLore? I'm doing my best to ignore his/her uninformed, slanted and error riddled posts.

I for one, am someone who does not make up stuff for this thread. I'd like to hear if you will ever resume writing about Laser sailing in a positive way - instead of using your blog proper course to take pot shots at the Laser and promote the RS Aero.

Do you really think Kirby's legal action is a big joke Tillerman?

 

[tillerman]

You really want to align yourself with a known troll like IPLore? I'm doing my best to ignore his/her uninformed, slanted and error riddled posts.

I for one, am someone who does not make up stuff for this thread. I'd like to hear if you will ever resume writing about Laser sailing in a positive way - instead of using your blog proper course to take pot shots at the Laser and promote the RS Aero.

Do you really think Kirby's legal action is a big joke Tillerman?

Yes. I find IPLore's posts some of the most reasonable and informative on this thread.

Yes. I will continue to write some positive posts about Laser sailing on my blog. Like the ones I published already this year on Feb 2, 18, 29, April 23, 25 and May 21. I love my Laser.

NO! I don't think it's a joke when the designer of the boat I love decides to sue the manufacturer of the boat and my class. Especially my class. I think it's terrible. But I am not a very very serious person. Here and on my blog I like to poke fun at things which I find amusing about sailing. Especially my own sailing blunders.

So shoot me. (That was a joke too.)

 

[Wess]

OMG. I got pulled over by the Po-Po w blue lights flashing today. Was so scared Gouv was right and started to search for the sticker hoping grey hairs name was on it. Could not find grey hairs name!!! Oh sh*t. The jack booted thug first indicated I was going to fast and then he asked the papers and I knew I was screwed.

Fortunately he knew me and was joking and told me to get the whaler back on plane and haul ass to get to the Herndon climb. From there it's 3 more years till heading off to keep the south china sea open and the world safe for red lasers!

Well unless she goes marines...

A laser sailing marine?! Good grief what a thought... No way; gotta be subs or SWO.

Carry on!

 

[Bruce Hudson]

You really want to align yourself with a known troll like IPLore? I'm doing my best to ignore his/her uninformed, slanted and error riddled posts.

I for one, am someone who does not make up stuff for this thread. I'd like to hear if you will ever resume writing about Laser sailing in a positive way - instead of using your blog proper course to take pot shots at the Laser and promote the RS Aero.

Do you really think Kirby's legal action is a big joke Tillerman?

Yes. I find IPLore's posts some of the most reasonable and informative on this thread.

Yes. I will continue to write some positive posts about Laser sailing on my blog. Like the ones I published already this year on Feb 2, 18, 29, April 23, 25 and May 21. I love my Laser.

NO! I don't think it's a joke when the designer of the boat I love decides to sue the manufacturer of the boat and my class. Especially my class. I think it's terrible. But I am not a very very serious person. Here and on my blog I like to poke fun at things which I find amusing about sailing. Especially my own sailing blunders.

So shoot me. (That was a joke too.)

IPLore is someone who states again and again (in error) that Global sailing is PSA's parent - this is classic troll behaviour. IPLore uses 'facts' selectively - most recently to apparently counter that I found LP's and Crane's statements revealing. He dresses up the sale of centreboards as if it were a reasonable argument, makes the claim that nobody disagreed that they were PSA centreboards (while true is irrelevant) - my point was that was the best that LP / Crane had - and it fell short in the court's eyes. (The statements revealed that LP's counterclaims started with accusations, then went hunting for evidence to support them. I think what it revealed most of all was that evidence is very difficult to get when it does not exist.) We have IPLore making the untrue claim that I don't understand affidavits, then 'explaining' (poorly) how affidavits in the US legal system work. And now we have Tiller man saying that IPLore is the voice of reason. Sheesh.

I agree that Tiller Man has written some positive things about the Laser in his blog Proper Course. I had to look for them - he's are right, while they are there, there are very few of late. Tiller Man claims that on April 29 he wrote positive things about the Laser, he didn't - at least any thinking person would conclude he didn't - what he was referring to is the only blog posted on April 29, a satirical piece directly comparing the Aero to the Laser. It is very negative about the Laser. Here's an excerpt:

3. Mainsheet Fun

The Laser has been cleverly designed with the sheet running to a traveler at the rear of the boat and nice square corners at the rear end of the hull which will conveniently catch the sheet if it trails in the water when you are gybing and give you a surprise by quickly capsizing the boat and throwing you in the water. Ha ha ha!

Ha ha ha!

Whereas the designer of the RS Aero, for reasons I just don't understand, designed it with a center sheeting system so you get none of the above-mentioned surprise capsize fun that you get with a Laser. Boring!

Source: http://propercourse.blogspot.com/2016/04/7-reasons-why-laser-is-better-than-rs.html

Tiller Man's blog Proper Course has morphed into a promotional tool for the RS Aero, though it's still mentions Lasers a little. (Like when Tiller Man sailed his Aero in a Laser fleet and won most of the races). There is no denying that Tiller Man is doing an outstanding job promoting the Aero, he is even fleet captain of a fledgling Aero fleet - good luck!

But back to the post that Tiller Man wrote above. When reading it, I had the feeling that I had read very similar things before, except that Wess had written them. Wess is also a fan of IPLore, and admits liking to poke fun at people.

I thought that was quite a coincidence, so I decided to look for more 'coincidences'. After a quick look, here's what I found:

• Both Wess and Tiller Man joined SA in June 2006 (Tiller man was first)
• Wess posts lots of videos to this forum, whereas Tiller Man posts videos in his blog Proper Course. What I found interesting is that both use videos to make points in a similar, almost identical way, both have a remarkably similar taste in videos posted - with a definite UK bias.
• Both think it's terrible that Kirby sued the ILCA, both are very defensive of the ILCA.
• Both have an unusual blend of UK/US English usage. (Tillerman moved from the UK to the US in the 1980s)
• Both use satire in a similar way.

I hope that this puts an end to the speculation that Wess is Bill Crane.

 

[Wess]

You really want to align yourself with a known troll like IPLore? I'm doing my best to ignore his/her uninformed, slanted and error riddled posts.

I for one, am someone who does not make up stuff for this thread. I'd like to hear if you will ever resume writing about Laser sailing in a positive way - instead of using your blog proper course to take pot shots at the Laser and promote the RS Aero.

Do you really think Kirby's legal action is a big joke Tillerman?

Yes. I find IPLore's posts some of the most reasonable and informative on this thread.

Yes. I will continue to write some positive posts about Laser sailing on my blog. Like the ones I published already this year on Feb 2, 18, 29, April 23, 25 and May 21. I love my Laser.

NO! I don't think it's a joke when the designer of the boat I love decides to sue the manufacturer of the boat and my class. Especially my class. I think it's terrible. But I am not a very very serious person. Here and on my blog I like to poke fun at things which I find amusing about sailing. Especially my own sailing blunders.

So shoot me. (That was a joke too.)

IPLore is someone who states again and again (in error) that Global sailing is PSA's parent - this is classic troll behaviour. IPLore uses 'facts' selectively - most recently to apparently counter that I found LP's and Crane's statements revealing. He dresses up the sale of centreboards as if it were a reasonable argument, makes the claim that nobody disagreed that they were PSA centreboards (while true is irrelevant) - my point was that was the best that LP / Crane had - and it fell short in the court's eyes. (The statements revealed that LP's counterclaims started with accusations, then went hunting for evidence to support them. I think what it revealed most of all was that evidence is very difficult to get when it does not exist.) We have IPLore making the untrue claim that I don't understand affidavits, then 'explaining' (poorly) how affidavits in the US legal system work. And now we have Tiller man saying that IPLore is the voice of reason. Sheesh.

I agree that Tiller Man has written some positive things about the Laser in his blog Proper Course. I had to look for them - he's are right, while they are there, there are very few of late. Tiller Man claims that on April 29 he wrote positive things about the Laser, he didn't - at least any thinking person would conclude he didn't - what he was referring to is the only blog posted on April 29, a satirical piece directly comparing the Aero to the Laser. It is very negative about the Laser. Here's an excerpt:

3. Mainsheet Fun

The Laser has been cleverly designed with the sheet running to a traveler at the rear of the boat and nice square corners at the rear end of the hull which will conveniently catch the sheet if it trails in the water when you are gybing and give you a surprise by quickly capsizing the boat and throwing you in the water. Ha ha ha!

Ha ha ha!

Whereas the designer of the RS Aero, for reasons I just don't understand, designed it with a center sheeting system so you get none of the above-mentioned surprise capsize fun that you get with a Laser. Boring!

Source: http://propercourse.blogspot.com/2016/04/7-reasons-why-laser-is-better-than-rs.html

Tiller Man's blog Proper Course has morphed into a promotional tool for the RS Aero, though it's still mentions Lasers a little. (Like when Tiller Man sailed his Aero in a Laser fleet and won most of the races). There is no denying that Tiller Man is doing an outstanding job promoting the Aero, he is even fleet captain of a fledgling Aero fleet - good luck!

But back to the post that Tiller Man wrote above. When reading it, I had the feeling that I had read very similar things before, except that Wess had written them. Wess is also a fan of IPLore, and admits liking to poke fun at people.

I thought that was quite a coincidence, so I decided to look for more 'coincidences'. After a quick look, here's what I found:

• Both Wess and Tiller Man joined SA in June 2006 (Tiller man was first)
• Wess posts lots of videos to this forum, whereas Tiller Man posts videos in his blog Proper Course. What I found interesting is that both use videos to make points in a similar, almost identical way, both have a remarkably similar taste in videos posted - with a definite UK bias.
• Both think it's terrible that Kirby sued the ILCA, both are very defensive of the ILCA.
• Both have an unusual blend of UK/US English usage. (Tillerman moved from the UK to the US in the 1980s)
• Both use satire in a similar way.

I hope that this puts an end to the speculation that Wess is Bill Crane.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

The best ever. Had to save it.

Got a video for you Canntt (understand sh*t)...



Think about it for a while...

Sorry Tillerman but Canntt has found us out. Gosh I love our Aero!!

Fish on!!

 

[Dex Sawash]

Are you guys switching sides just to see who is still paying attention?

 

[tillerman]

LOL. Poor old Gantt has finally lost it.

Upon information and belief, Tillerman now knows for sure that Gantt just makes stuff up.

 

[tillerman]

You really want to align yourself with a known troll like IPLore? I'm doing my best to ignore his/her uninformed, slanted and error riddled posts.

I for one, am someone who does not make up stuff for this thread. I'd like to hear if you will ever resume writing about Laser sailing in a positive way - instead of using your blog proper course to take pot shots at the Laser and promote the RS Aero.

Do you really think Kirby's legal action is a big joke Tillerman?

Yes. I find IPLore's posts some of the most reasonable and informative on this thread.

Yes. I will continue to write some positive posts about Laser sailing on my blog. Like the ones I published already this year on Feb 2, 18, 29, April 23, 25 and May 21. I love my Laser.

NO! I don't think it's a joke when the designer of the boat I love decides to sue the manufacturer of the boat and my class. Especially my class. I think it's terrible. But I am not a very very serious person. Here and on my blog I like to poke fun at things which I find amusing about sailing. Especially my own sailing blunders.

So shoot me. (That was a joke too.)

IPLore is someone who states again and again (in error) that Global sailing is PSA's parent - this is classic troll behaviour. IPLore uses 'facts' selectively - most recently to apparently counter that I found LP's and Crane's statements revealing. He dresses up the sale of centreboards as if it were a reasonable argument, makes the claim that nobody disagreed that they were PSA centreboards (while true is irrelevant) - my point was that was the best that LP / Crane had - and it fell short in the court's eyes. (The statements revealed that LP's counterclaims started with accusations, then went hunting for evidence to support them. I think what it revealed most of all was that evidence is very difficult to get when it does not exist.) We have IPLore making the untrue claim that I don't understand affidavits, then 'explaining' (poorly) how affidavits in the US legal system work. And now we have Tiller man saying that IPLore is the voice of reason. Sheesh.

I agree that Tiller Man has written some positive things about the Laser in his blog Proper Course. I had to look for them - he's are right, while they are there, there are very few of late. Tiller Man claims that on April 29 he wrote positive things about the Laser, he didn't - at least any thinking person would conclude he didn't - what he was referring to is the only blog posted on April 29, a satirical piece directly comparing the Aero to the Laser. It is very negative about the Laser. Here's an excerpt:

3. Mainsheet Fun

The Laser has been cleverly designed with the sheet running to a traveler at the rear of the boat and nice square corners at the rear end of the hull which will conveniently catch the sheet if it trails in the water when you are gybing and give you a surprise by quickly capsizing the boat and throwing you in the water. Ha ha ha!

Ha ha ha!

Whereas the designer of the RS Aero, for reasons I just don't understand, designed it with a center sheeting system so you get none of the above-mentioned surprise capsize fun that you get with a Laser. Boring!

Source: http://propercourse.blogspot.com/2016/04/7-reasons-why-laser-is-better-than-rs.html

Tiller Man's blog Proper Course has morphed into a promotional tool for the RS Aero, though it's still mentions Lasers a little. (Like when Tiller Man sailed his Aero in a Laser fleet and won most of the races). There is no denying that Tiller Man is doing an outstanding job promoting the Aero, he is even fleet captain of a fledgling Aero fleet - good luck!

But back to the post that Tiller Man wrote above. When reading it, I had the feeling that I had read very similar things before, except that Wess had written them. Wess is also a fan of IPLore, and admits liking to poke fun at people.

I thought that was quite a coincidence, so I decided to look for more 'coincidences'. After a quick look, here's what I found:

• Both Wess and Tiller Man joined SA in June 2006 (Tiller man was first)
• Wess posts lots of videos to this forum, whereas Tiller Man posts videos in his blog Proper Course. What I found interesting is that both use videos to make points in a similar, almost identical way, both have a remarkably similar taste in videos posted - with a definite UK bias.
• Both think it's terrible that Kirby sued the ILCA, both are very defensive of the ILCA.
• Both have an unusual blend of UK/US English usage. (Tillerman moved from the UK to the US in the 1980s)
• Both use satire in a similar way.

I hope that this puts an end to the speculation that Wess is Bill Crane.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

The best ever. Had to save it.

Got a video for you Canntt (understand sh*t)...

Damn. I guess the fact that we both know how to post videos was a dead giveaway?

 

[Wess]

Damn. I guess the fact that we both know how to post videos was a dead giveaway?

Naw, I think its that we both actually sail and apparently don't think the sky is falling. But I will try to distract him from the sad truth of our DID diagnosis by posting a non-UK style video.

Hey Canntt while you were typing this weekend I was sailing. Then yesterday I was again "on a boat:"



Tiller Man - If we both take valium to treat our DID will we be ourselves again?

PS - Do you think he gets our Black Queen reference? h34r:

PPS - And don't you log back in as me while you being me being you and edit out the "our"...

 

[tillerman]

Are you guys switching sides just to see who is still paying attention?

There are sides?

I don't take sides in things like this. It's just a commercial argument between two crazy old rich coots in the US and one crazy very rich old family in New Zealand as to who gets to control the manufacture of our toys and who gets to gather a few more dollars from each of us when we buy one of those toys. I think they are all more or less equally to blame. A plague on all their houses.

This dispute exposes some of the worst features of western greed and capitalism. The sooner the Chinese steal the secrets of how to make the Laser and start shipping well made cheap red Lasers to the whole world, the better off we all will be.

 

[Wess]

Are you guys switching sides just to see who is still paying attention?

There are sides?

I don't take sides in things like this. It's just a commercial argument between two crazy old rich coots in the US and one crazy very rich old family in New Zealand as to who gets to control the manufacture of our toys and who gets to gather a few more dollars from each of us when we buy one of those toys. I think they are all more or less equally to blame. A plague on all their houses.

This dispute exposes some of the worst features of western greed and capitalism. The sooner the Chinese steal the secrets of how to make the Laser and start shipping well made cheap red Lasers to the whole world, the better off we all will be.

OMG, I feel the EXACT same way. I mean I could have written that.

Oh wait...

 

[Sailabout]

they made a lot of T model fords but they eventually stopped didnt they

of course if the guardians of sailing ran the automotive world we would be still driving t model Fords for sure.

 

[Bill5]

It shouldn't be a surprise that we will all be importing Lasers from China in the very near future. The US has been importing more goods from China than any other country for nearly 10 years. That might change if Trump gets in, but there already is a wall in place...

Will the sails still be made in Sri Lanka? Probably - I believe the wages there are much lower than in China. If my Google research and calculator skills are correct, the minimum wage in Sri Lanka is less than $65 per month.

 

[Wess]

You really should make certain your children and grandchildren are fluent in Chinese. They might be able to hold jobs as trustys working for the new government

我喜欢你的吊臂切
Wǒ xǐhuān nǐ de diào bì qiè

 

[Wess]

Weird .....

You really should make certain your children and grandchildren are fluent in Chinese. They might be able to hold jobs as trustys working for the new government

我喜欢你的吊臂切Wǒ xǐhuān nǐ de diào bì qiè

Sh*t that is funny. Post of the thread, Gouv.

 

[RMK]

Wait, if Wes is Tillerman and Tillerman is Wes ... who is Spartacus?