Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

[tillerman]

Tiller Man is reading my personal Facebook account.

We are Facebook friends after all.

Wait, what... we are? Geeze, this is awkward. I was 99er% sure that could not be. G

LOL. In a world where we use different identities from our real names on forums like this and then some of us imaginary characters are accused of being the same people as other imaginary characters (and them some characters play along with such delusions) it's getting harder and harder to keep up with who is who and who is our friend and who's on first.

 

[Wess]

Gosh I love our music selection but not so sure about this Aero thing. Chinese Sunfish seem more my speed. Regards, WWW

 

[tillerman]

Gosh I love our music selection but not so sure about this Aero thing. Chinese Sunfish seem more my speed. Regards, WWW

Chinese Lasers. Chinese Sunfish. English RS Aeros.

Aren't there any American made single-handers any more?

Oh yes, the Melges 14.

But where are the fleets? Where are the fleets?

 

[Wess]

Let us not forget Argentina with the 99er. Sailing in the DR is fun and no lawyering allowed. When the judge gets pissed at all of BK, LP, PSA, etc... we will rule the world!! Is Gantt sure that the class leadership isn't all down here now enjoying strong balmy breezes, clear blue water, rum drinks and plotting the 99er's future dominance? Court?! We don't need no stinkin court! Regards, AB

 

[tillerman]

Let us not forget Argentina with the 99er. Sailing in the DR is fun and no lawyering allowed. When the judge gets pissed at all of BK, LP, PSA, etc... we will rule the world!! Is Gantt sure that the class leadership isn't all down here now enjoying strong balmy breezes, clear blue water, rum drinks and plotting the 99er's future dominance? Court?! We don't need no stinkin court! Regards, AB

Wait!

Wess is AB?

AB is Wess?

Aren't we Facebook friends?

I think I'm going to have a nervous breakdown now.

 

[Newport Coast]

American made... since 1947, Naples Sabot, $4k with carbon spars and teak rails.

Gosh I love our music selection but not so sure about this Aero thing. Chinese Sunfish seem more my speed. Regards, WWW

Chinese Lasers. Chinese Sunfish. English RS Aeros.

Aren't there any American made single-handers any more?

Oh yes, the Melges 14.

But where are the fleets? Where are the fleets?

 

[Wess]

Let us not forget Argentina with the 99er. Sailing in the DR is fun and no lawyering allowed. When the judge gets pissed at all of BK, LP, PSA, etc... we will rule the world!! Is Gantt sure that the class leadership isn't all down here now enjoying strong balmy breezes, clear blue water, rum drinks and plotting the 99er's future dominance? Court?! We don't need no stinkin court! Regards, AB

Wait!

Wess is AB?

AB is Wess?

Aren't we Facebook friends?

I think I'm going to have a nervous breakdown now.

Need need to be nervous self. You can call me (us) Al, or Ari, Wesley, or Judith, Gantt or Gouv. You can call me Bill, Jeff (he saw the 99ers) or even Bruce. Just don't call me late for dinner... or a chance to go sailing.

 

[tillerman]

Let us not forget Argentina with the 99er. Sailing in the DR is fun and no lawyering allowed. When the judge gets pissed at all of BK, LP, PSA, etc... we will rule the world!! Is Gantt sure that the class leadership isn't all down here now enjoying strong balmy breezes, clear blue water, rum drinks and plotting the 99er's future dominance? Court?! We don't need no stinkin court! Regards, AB

Wait!

Wess is AB?

AB is Wess?

Aren't we Facebook friends?

I think I'm going to have a nervous breakdown now.

 

[Wess]

Ah, the hugo BOSS! AT

 

[Bruce Hudson]

One of the positions put forward by the ILCA was that Kirby's legal action was a dispute between two commercial parties, and the ILCA claimed to take steps to remain neutral.

We know that that prior to the legal action that the ILCA changed the fundamental rule, which supposedly allowed Laser Performance to continue to build Lasers without Bruce Kirby Inc's permission - crucial to this was the notion that the builder's contracts were "historic", that Kirby by attempting to sell his interests in BKI (personal property), somehow invalidated the contracts. (The sale was not completed, with the initial steps taken, reversed). Shortly after the legal action commenced, plaques were released to Laser Performance. As it turned out, there was an agreement between the ILCA and Kirby which acknowledged Kirby's rights, signed by Jeff Martin - an agreement lately referred to as the "ISAF agreement".

Later, these "historic" contracts were described as not known.

ILCA is not a party to this contract and does not even know its content, but in our current fundamental rule the existence of such a contract is one of the requirements for a recognised builder. ILCA is the victim of a conflict it has no direct influence on. We proposed several solutions, but they were all refused. Therefore the only way the class could get around that conflict, was the change in the fundamental class rule, which eliminates the necessity of a licence contract for a recognised builder.

Of course we now know in detail the builders contracts between BKI and LP, with copies of them becoming public record with the legal action.

Builders have contracts to pay in the region of 3% of the retail value of a Laser, including the builders contract royalty of approx 2% of the wholesale cost of a hull, paid to BKI, and to the ILCA, in the form of selling plaques, and also selling buttons for the sails. According to the documents lodged in the legal action, Laser Performance hasn't paid royalties since about mid 2008. According to the annual reports, LP has continued to pay the ILCA. The ILCA's commercial interest is with Laser builders,

This commercial relationship that the ILCA has with the builders hasn't been discussed in any real depth. It is dominated by the largest builder, Laser Performance. The ILCA does get revenues from other sources. The ILCA has no known direct commercial interest with Bruce Kirby or BKI.

We have been asked to trust that the ILCA has acted with neutrality, however it's actions have consistently been to the benefit of Laser Performance. Currently there appears to be a new builder in a new region, Asia, being set up. Laser Performance's moulds are in Shanghai, so they are involved somehow.

Originally, the ILCA stated that it acted without knowledge of the contracts, apparently this included the one that Jeff Martin signed on behalf of the ILCA. Now, it appears the ILCA is on the cusp of approving a new builder in Shanghai. What's different this time is that the ILCA cannot claim that it has no knowledge of contracts.

It takes a special kind of stupid to think that the ILCA has done no wrong.

 

[tillerman]

Thanks Gantt for bringing this thread back to its original topic.

I am interested to know more about the "ISAF agreement" which you mentioned. Is there a public copy of this that we can see?

Also you say that the contracts between Kirby and the builders are now a matter of public record. Can you provide a link where we can see these too?

 

[Wess]

One of the positions put forward by the ILCA was that Kirby's legal action was a dispute between two commercial parties, and the ILCA claimed to take steps to remain neutral.

We know that that prior to the legal action that the ILCA changed the fundamental rule, which supposedly allowed Laser Performance to continue to build Lasers without Bruce Kirby Inc's permission - crucial to this was the notion that the builder's contracts were "historic", that Kirby by attempting to sell his interests in BKI (personal property), somehow invalidated the contracts. (The sale was not completed, with the initial steps taken, reversed). Shortly after the legal action commenced, plaques were released to Laser Performance. As it turned out, there was an agreement between the ILCA and Kirby which acknowledged Kirby's rights, signed by Jeff Martin - an agreement lately referred to as the "ISAF agreement".

Later, these "historic" contracts were described as not known.

ILCA is not a party to this contract and does not even know its content, but in our current fundamental rule the existence of such a contract is one of the requirements for a recognised builder. ILCA is the victim of a conflict it has no direct influence on. We proposed several solutions, but they were all refused. Therefore the only way the class could get around that conflict, was the change in the fundamental class rule, which eliminates the necessity of a licence contract for a recognised builder.

Of course we now know in detail the builders contracts between BKI and LP, with copies of them becoming public record with the legal action.

Builders have contracts to pay in the region of 3% of the retail value of a Laser, including the builders contract royalty of approx 2% of the wholesale cost of a hull, paid to BKI, and to the ILCA, in the form of selling plaques, and also selling buttons for the sails. According to the documents lodged in the legal action, Laser Performance hasn't paid royalties since about mid 2008. According to the annual reports, LP has continued to pay the ILCA. The ILCA's commercial interest is with Laser builders,

This commercial relationship that the ILCA has with the builders hasn't been discussed in any real depth. It is dominated by the largest builder, Laser Performance. The ILCA does get revenues from other sources. The ILCA has no known direct commercial interest with Bruce Kirby or BKI.

We have been asked to trust that the ILCA has acted with neutrality, however it's actions have consistently been to the benefit of Laser Performance. Currently there appears to be a new builder in a new region, Asia, being set up. Laser Performance's moulds are in Shanghai, so they are involved somehow.

Originally, the ILCA stated that it acted without knowledge of the contracts, apparently this included the one that Jeff Martin signed on behalf of the ILCA. Now, it appears the ILCA is on the cusp of approving a new builder in Shanghai. What's different this time is that the ILCA cannot claim that it has no knowledge of contracts.

It takes a special kind of stupid to think that the ILCA has done no wrong.

Canntt, many might agree you have the intellect necessary to speak with great authority about a "special kind of stupid" to use your words. And you would also know I did not type the words you have attributed to me above on that date or any other but I will agree the words likely accurately reflect the situation and so will agree them and complement you on learning yet another new skill in addition to your propensity to act as a member of and attempt to vote in class matters when not a member of the class.

Thank you for those additional insights as well as I for one feel quite stupid for not realizing that Laser builders paid a royalty to the class in return for having their boats certified (via sail button or hull plaques - OMG, who knew; its not like its in ARs or anything!!) for use in the class.

Please educate us further and post the Kirby/builder and Kirby/ISAF contacts. No doubt they will be illuminating.

Here is some music that might be relevant while we wait.



Do you have a little green man in your head?

Do you know I sail a boat named Lola?

"Paranoia, the destroyer!!"

Regards,

RD

 

[tillerman]

Thanks Wess.

I like the Kinks too.

Regards,

DD

 

[Wess]

Brother, don't you remember we named our boat after our songs!?



Or maybe it came with that name. I can't remember; those times are just so blurry in my mind. A lot like this case for some...

RD

 

[BobBill]

Uh! Oh!

 

[Wess]

Global warming is LP's fault

I thought they caused global sailing of performance sailcrafts called Lasers (well... within their territory at least).

 

[BobBill]

Global warming is LP's fault

A curse it is! Gotta love it!

 

[tillerman]

Global warming is LP's fault

But LP couldn't have done it if the Laser Class hadn't revised the Second Law of Thermodynamics to help them. The Laser Class said it was necessary to keep temperatures neutral but we all know they really did it for the money.

 

[JimC]

Not sure all this nonsense really advances things much.

Maybe US LAser sailors should start a campaign of writing to the judge and respectfully asking him if he could see his way clear to doing his frigging job rather than sitting on the case for months...

 

[tillerman]

Not sure all this nonsense really advances things much.

Maybe US LAser sailors should start a campaign of writing to the judge and respectfully asking him if he could see his way clear to doing his frigging job rather than sitting on the case for months...

Nothing on this forum is going to advance things much.

Either we scream and shout at each other and hurl insults like "special kind of stupid."

Or we have a laugh at the ridiculousness of the whole situation and of most of the arguments advanced in this thread.

US judges have bigger things to worry about these days than letters from Laser sailors.