Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

[DTA]

Thank goodness the Aero came along, or I would actually have to give a darn about this whole mess and try to understand what it means for dudes who just want to sail a fast single-handed single-sail boat.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

Thanks Gantt for bringing this thread back to its original topic.

I am interested to know more about the "ISAF agreement" which you mentioned. Is there a public copy of this that we can see?

Also you say that the contracts between Kirby and the builders are now a matter of public record. Can you provide a link where we can see these too?

Yes, the ISAF agreement was posted first on this forum in April 2013.

Kirby's Action with the appendices was posted here on June 23, 2013 by ojfd - though I see the link now does not work.

This link is current: http://docdro.id/J1xCef9

I am very glad Tiller Man that you are looking at this in more depth.

Maybe you can reconcile the claim in 2011 that the ILCA did not know about the builders contracts. This document shows Jeff Martin's signing of an agreement on behalf of the ILCA that defined builders in terms of their license agreements, and even outlined some of the rights in the builders agreements (eg territories).

I want to stress again that Jeff Martin has done a lot of good work for the Laser Class generally, however that does not make him infallible or beyond reproach.

The ISAF agreement is Exhibit 3 which starts on page 51 of the PDF.

 

[tillerman]

Thank goodness the Aero came along, or I would actually have to give a darn about this whole mess and try to understand what it means for dudes who just want to sail a fast single-handed single-sail boat.

Me too Dion. I still have my Laser but if Bruce Kirby succeeds in destroying the Laser class and cutting off the supply of Lasers to North America, then at least I have an escape plan.

What to do if Donald Trump becomes president may require a different kind of escape plan. I kind of like the idea of moving to New Zealand but if they are all like Gantt that doesn't sound like much fun.

But we will always have Canada.

 

[tillerman]

Thanks Gantt for bringing this thread back to its original topic.

I am interested to know more about the "ISAF agreement" which you mentioned. Is there a public copy of this that we can see?

Also you say that the contracts between Kirby and the builders are now a matter of public record. Can you provide a link where we can see these too?

Yes, the ISAF agreement was posted first on this forum in April 2013.

Kirby's Action with the appendices was posted here on June 23, 2013 by ojfd - though I see the link now does not work.

This link is current: http://docdro.id/J1xCef9

I am very glad Tiller Man that you are looking at this in more depth.

Maybe you can reconcile the claim in 2011 that the ILCA did not know about the builders contracts. This document shows Jeff Martin's signing of an agreement on behalf of the ILCA that defined builders in terms of their license agreements, and even outlined some of the rights in the builders agreements (eg territories).

I want to stress again that Jeff Martin has done a lot of good work for the Laser Class generally, however that does not make him infallible or beyond reproach.

The ISAF agreement is Exhibit 3 which starts on page 51 of the PDF.

Thanks for the link Gantt but all I get is a 404 error.

 

[tillerman]

Mohammed Ali died while this fight raged

Prince, David Bowie, Osama Bin Laden

Neil Armstrong, Sally Ride, Ray Bradbury

Nelson Mandela, Richie Havens, James Gandolfini

Pete Seeger, Robin Williams, Maya Angelou

 

[Bruce Hudson]

Thanks Gantt for bringing this thread back to its original topic.

I am interested to know more about the "ISAF agreement" which you mentioned. Is there a public copy of this that we can see?

Also you say that the contracts between Kirby and the builders are now a matter of public record. Can you provide a link where we can see these too?

Yes, the ISAF agreement was posted first on this forum in April 2013.

Kirby's Action with the appendices was posted here on June 23, 2013 by ojfd - though I see the link now does not work.

This link is current: http://docdro.id/J1xCef9

I am very glad Tiller Man that you are looking at this in more depth.

Maybe you can reconcile the claim in 2011 that the ILCA did not know about the builders contracts. This document shows Jeff Martin's signing of an agreement on behalf of the ILCA that defined builders in terms of their license agreements, and even outlined some of the rights in the builders agreements (eg territories).

I want to stress again that Jeff Martin has done a lot of good work for the Laser Class generally, however that does not make him infallible or beyond reproach.

The ISAF agreement is Exhibit 3 which starts on page 51 of the PDF.

Thanks for the link Gantt but all I get is a 404 error.

Try this:

https://www.docdroid.net/J1xCef9/kirby-first-amended-complaint-final1-with-appendices.pdf.html

 

[BobBill]

Mary Jones!

 

[JimC]

Not sure all this nonsense really advances things much.

Maybe US LAser sailors should start a campaign of writing to the judge and respectfully asking him if he could see his way clear to doing his frigging job rather than sitting on the case for months...

US judges have bigger things to worry about these days than letters from Laser sailors.

Might depend on how many letters...

 

[Wess]

Thank goodness the Aero came along, or I would actually have to give a darn about this whole mess and try to understand what it means for dudes who just want to sail a fast single-handed single-sail boat.

Me too Dion. I still have my Laser but if Bruce Kirby succeeds in destroying the Laser class and cutting off the supply of Lasers to North America, then at least I have an escape plan.

What to do if Donald Trump becomes president may require a different kind of escape plan. I kind of like the idea of moving to New Zealand but if they are all like Gantt that doesn't sound like much fun.

But we will always have Canada.

No need to be nervous (well other than this year's crop of candidates... Canada does look pretty good). The Laser class is not going anywhere. Was, is, and will continue to be the largest group of single handed dinghies. BK can't destroy it and even LPE or any other trademark owner can't... especially for the vast majority of club level fleet sailors. There are likely 1000s of Lasers within 10 miles of my zip code and I would bet almost and maybe even more than 500 at the 4 major sailing club/associations/facilities all within walking distance of one another. Does anyone really think these fleets all just stop sailing and go home even in the most absurd outcome of the court case possible. New boats? Just go back over this thread and you will find reference to others manufacturing boats that look like, spec like, and sail like Lasers. Those boats would meet any reasonable class standard the class could decide to establish. Nobody can or has stopped those generic Laser manufacturers from making and selling generic Lasers anywhere to date and those generic Lasers are also all way more affordable. What they (other than the trademark owner) can't do is call them Lasers or make them Laser class legal boats under today's class rules. Tomorrow? My guess is the class does whatever it needs or is forced to do to be able to sail, as they should. Heck, even BK talked of doing Laser knock-off/transition model with his Torch (no idea if he was thinking more or less affordable).

The class kept Laser sailing alive for almost a half decade now with all this mess going on around them and they did that both for the high end (Olympic/Worlds) sailors and for club level folks.

I bet nothing ever changes for the sailors because of the wise actions of the class. Even in the most extreme view possible, the class may not be called Laser or be in the Olympics, but I bet anyone that my local fleet is sailing their same one man dinghies 2, 5, and 10 years from now no matter what the judge rules.

The sky was not, is not, and never will be falling. Just some lawyers lawyering, and rich dudes wanting to get richer. Thanks to the actions of the class, sailors can just sail and always will.

Same as it ever was.



Regards,

DB

PS - DTA, don't listen to my alter ego (sorry TM), sell that Aero, buy a nice used Laser at half the price. You will have $3K in your beer fund and many more friends to sail with. Of course if all my Laser friends did flop to Aeros, I am getting me one. Nice boat for the same price as a Laser. Just no real meaningful US fleets.

 

[tillerman]

Thank goodness the Aero came along, or I would actually have to give a darn about this whole mess and try to understand what it means for dudes who just want to sail a fast single-handed single-sail boat.

Me too Dion. I still have my Laser but if Bruce Kirby succeeds in destroying the Laser class and cutting off the supply of Lasers to North America, then at least I have an escape plan.

What to do if Donald Trump becomes president may require a different kind of escape plan. I kind of like the idea of moving to New Zealand but if they are all like Gantt that doesn't sound like much fun.

But we will always have Canada.

No need to be nervous (well other than this year's crop of candidates... Canada does look pretty good). The Laser class is not going anywhere.

The class kept Laser sailing alive for almost a half decade now with all this mess going on around them and they did that both for the high end (Olympic/Worlds) sailors and for club level folks.

I bet nothing ever changes for the sailors because of the wise actions of the class. Even in the most extreme view possible, the class may not be called Laser or be in the Olympics, but I bet anyone that my local fleet is sailing their same one man dinghies 2, 5, and 10 years from now no matter what the judge rules.

The sky was not, is not, and never will be falling. Just some lawyers lawyering, and rich dudes wanting to get richer. Thanks to the actions of the class, sailors can just sail and always will.

Same as it ever was.

Regards,

DB

Thanks for those words of encouragement Wess. You are so right. In spite of the best efforts of the designer and the manufacturers to screw up our game with their squabbles over money, it is the Laser Class who are the only party on the side of the sailors. Thank goodness we have such wise and dedicated leaders of the class who will continue to find ways to keep our game alive and thriving.

Every Laser sailor who is not already a class member should go out and join today. Don't be a freeloader. United we stand. Divided we fall.

Regards

WG

 

[BobBill]

+1.

Thing is, given enough rope...as we have seen with this class.

Besides, even with the venerable Finns, most people will out grow these boats and settle for something that fits their lifestyle...

I am here only cause I am curious former Laser sailor who did not like the boat and sort of watching how this class sits upon its pitard, size notwithstanding and even emphasizes the dimness of it all.

 

[Wess]

TM -

Dang, I think its clear we both enjoy sailing and music but where on earth did you find that last one Woody (written in a Communist Party office, LOL!!)?

And to reestablish our separate identities, let me respectfully disagree with you on the "join the class" cry. I don't think differently of a Laser sailor who has or has not joined the class. Unlike Gantt I don't think a non-class member should vote or complain about the class (or throw them under the bus) while sailing in the fleet and not joining but I don't think every Laser club level or HS/college sailor must join. The class association largely benefits top level sailors more than club level folks and membership is biased (I think) the same way unsurprisingly.

WWW

Edit to add - Geeze BB, its been around since the 70s. Almost a half century. Are there better boats? Sure; but not better fleets. Folks following the latest technology/design just means small fleets with no critical mass and folks buying new boats (and their now old boat losing value) all the time. Sounds expensive and not so fun. Besides with more than a few generations sailing them now I'm not sure folks are growing out of them and picking something else aligned with their lifestyle. Maybe large fleets and affordable used (or new) boats are a lifestyle, no?

 

[BobBill]

Wess, not disagree, but I do see the problems as irony, perhaps long in coming, relative to the numbers, is all. Given enough rope...and it happened to a very large dinghy class. Says something?

 

[Wess]

Wess, not disagree, but I do see the problems as irony, perhaps long in coming, relative to the numbers, is all. Given enough rope...and it happened to a very large dinghy class. Says something?

Long in coming perhaps less due to the number of boats/sailors (though less boats/sailors mean less money so maybe no fight), and more due the convoluted and dispersed (rope) ownership model (of TM, copyrights, contracts, and "rights" being based in class rules)? The class is stuck in an ownerships rights structural mess it didn't make but need to negotiate regardless of big or small numbers. Optis are bigger (I think), have a cleaner ownership structure, and have not had the same issue AFAIK.

But come on, you gotta post a music video to make your point!

 

[tillerman]

TM -

Dang, I think its clear we both enjoy sailing and music but where on earth did you find that last one Woody (written in a Communist Party office, LOL!!)?

And to reestablish our separate identities, let me respectfully disagree with you on the "join the class" cry. I don't think differently of a Laser sailor who has or has not joined the class. Unlike Gantt I don't think a non-class member should vote or complain about the class (or throw them under the bus) while sailing in the fleet and not joining but I don't think every Laser club level or HS/college sailor must join. The class association largely benefits top level sailors more than club level folks and membership is biased (I think) the same way unsurprisingly.

WWW

Edit to add - Geeze BB, its been around since the 70s. Almost a half century. Are there better boats? Sure; but not better fleets. Folks following the latest technology/design just means small fleets with no critical mass and folks buying new boats (and their now old boat losing value) all the time. Sounds expensive and not so fun. Besides with more than a few generations sailing them now I'm not sure folks are growing out of them and picking something else aligned with their lifestyle. Maybe large fleets and affordable used (or new) boats are a lifestyle, no?

LOL. I've known that song for a long time.

I don't feel strongly about local Laser club sailors who don't bother to join the class, although I would like them to. I do feel strongly about people who won't join the class but still feel they have the standing to constantly criticize hard-working class volunteers when they themselves won't lift a finger to help the class - not to mention they still vote fraudulently in class elections. Such behavior is totally reprehensible.

 

[BobBill]

Huzzah all volunteers. I have always thought PS was its own worst enemy.

A song? How about "Long Ago and Far Away?" Have no clue, really, maybe something by She and Him?

 

[Wess]

TM -

Dang, I think its clear we both enjoy sailing and music but where on earth did you find that last one Woody (written in a Communist Party office, LOL!!)?

And to reestablish our separate identities, let me respectfully disagree with you on the "join the class" cry. I don't think differently of a Laser sailor who has or has not joined the class. Unlike Gantt I don't think a non-class member should vote or complain about the class (or throw them under the bus) while sailing in the fleet and not joining but I don't think every Laser club level or HS/college sailor must join. The class association largely benefits top level sailors more than club level folks and membership is biased (I think) the same way unsurprisingly.

WWW

Edit to add - Geeze BB, its been around since the 70s. Almost a half century. Are there better boats? Sure; but not better fleets. Folks following the latest technology/design just means small fleets with no critical mass and folks buying new boats (and their now old boat losing value) all the time. Sounds expensive and not so fun. Besides with more than a few generations sailing them now I'm not sure folks are growing out of them and picking something else aligned with their lifestyle. Maybe large fleets and affordable used (or new) boats are a lifestyle, no?

LOL. I've known that song for a long time.

I don't feel strongly about local Laser club sailors who don't bother to join the class, although I would like them to. I do feel strongly about people who won't join the class but still feel they have the standing to constantly criticize hard-working class volunteers when they themselves won't lift a finger to help the class - not to mention they still vote fraudulently in class elections. Such behavior is totally reprehensible.

Yea, I agree.

Huzzah all volunteers. I have always thought PS was its own worst enemy.

A song? How about "Long Ago and Far Away?" Have no clue, really, maybe something by She and Him?

Yea, I am no fan of PSA either and like TM tend to support volunteers and the class.

Do you mean this song?



Just how old do you think TM and I are, LOL!? You are talking Great Grand Master status if grooving to that one!

 

[BobBill]

That is kewl...the boy from Hoboken lives!

The fox knows many things but the hedgehog knows one big thing, and I am guessing "old" is not your description. But, it all works!

 

[Wess]

That is kewl...the boy from Hoboken lives!

The fox knows many things but the hedgehog knows one big thing, and I am guessing "old" is not your description. But, it all works!

Lets just say while my kids believe I am older than dirt, that I am about to qualify for Grand Master status. But maybe like ol man river, hopefully...



... "he must know something..."

PR

 

[Dex Sawash]

New insignia for the dinghy formerly known as Laser