Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch
- Thread starter Otterbox
- Start date
JimC
Not actually an anarchist.
They also have thousands of class members; lots of volunteer officials; a bunch of trophies with history and prestige; and the ability to run many regattas including world championships.
What does LPE's potential class offer? They can probably find officials to run regattas in Europe, but the entry numbers and their membership stream will probably be smaller than that of the existing class. They will probably have zero chance of running anything outside of Europe since they would have to find volunteers and entries, and they can't run a world championship.
LPE also have the problem that if they want to be able to offer Olympic class boats then they cannot stop LPA and LPJ boats from being sold in LPE territory, nor can they use the threat to not supply boats for the Olympics.
Q: Will boats from the newly-named builders be sold under the LASER brand?
A: No. In order to avoid trade mark issues and to comply with the requirements of European competition law, all current and future ILCA-approved builders will sell boats under a new brand name. ILCA and the current approved builders are finalizing the intellectual property details for the new brand, including fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory (FRAND) licensing rules. ILCA expects to announce the new brand name in the next four weeks.
A: No. In order to avoid trade mark issues and to comply with the requirements of European competition law, all current and future ILCA-approved builders will sell boats under a new brand name. ILCA and the current approved builders are finalizing the intellectual property details for the new brand, including fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory (FRAND) licensing rules. ILCA expects to announce the new brand name in the next four weeks.
Alan Crawford
Super Anarchist
I found a late 1970's vintage Laser brochure (note the handwritten price) in my files. Kind of sad to compare then (note also rigging in the pictures) and now.
Board skiff
Super Anarchist
- 1,606
- 672
With over half the worlds Lasers being in Europe, never mind the America’s, there is no reason to believe LPE regatta turnouts would be smaller. They also sell into (with rights) all continents except Oceania, so a much better global spread than PSA/PSJ. The LPE class would meet all the criteria to be an International class, which would presumably be ratified in short time.
That final point is surely one of LPEs annoyances. They have exclusive territorial rights currently and WS want to remove them. I know PSA do to, but in a much smaller territory. So PSA are net winner, LPE net loser under that proposal.
tillerman
Super Anarchist
So LaserPerformance/LPE could start a new class and it could run Laser regattas in most of the world which would be open to Lasers built by any builder before 2019, Lasers built by LP/LPE after 2019 - and maybe even Gammas (or whatever they will be called) built by other builders after 2019. As sosoomii says, this Laser class might even be a World Sailing Class and so be able to run Laser World Championships. Lasers would not be in the Olympics - even in 2020.
ILCA (perhaps soon to be called IGCA) will run Gamma regattas in all of the world, which would be open to Lasers built by any builder before 2019 and Gammas build by IGCA approved builders after 2019. Lasers built by LP/LPE after 2019 would presumably be excluded because LP/LPE would not be an IGCA approved builder. It is assumed that the Gamma Class would also be a World Sailing Class and be able to run Gamma World Championships. Gammas would be in the Olympics in 2020 and perhaps beyond.
As the owner of a 1995 Vanguard Laser this sounds wonderful to me. On balance I would prefer that my class NOT be an Olympic Class so I would probably favor doing the Laser regattas rather than the Gamma regattas, but I could sail Gamma regattas too if I wanted to. Sailors who have Olympic aspirations or who like sailing against sailors with Olympic aspirations would favor the Gamma Regattas.
Sounds like everybody wins.
Last edited by a moderator:
JimC
Not actually an anarchist.
I think that's quite a big presumption. I think it unlikely that WS and LPE will manage to agree contracts. And with LPEs record in the Americas they're going to struggle to get any real class association going. But we shall see.
Last edited by a moderator:
Sure, most Lasers are in Europe and North America - but how many active championship sailors will move to the new class? What would attract the current ILCA members to join up? Without current ILCA members joining in droves, surely the new class will be smaller. It's hard to see what it can offer that is as good as what ILCA can offer, unless it's massively subsidised by Babychopper Inc. It's hard enough to get volunteers to run the current class - where will the extra set of class officials come from and without them, who will run the class?
Whether the new class will be ratified as an International class is a very open question. Such ratification is a decision for WS, who are apparently narked with Rastegar. Why would they go ahead with ratification?While I'm not sure about it, the exclusive territorial rights issue may be linked to the EU's anti-trust actions, so even if Rastegar hates it WS can do nothing about it. An ILCA committee member recently said that ISAF wasn't aware until recently that there was no such rights; that people have always had the ability to buy parts from builders outside their own territory. Certainly there are plenty of people who have been buying sails across territories for many years. That was right when he was announcing the ILCA/Rastegar split so I didn't go into that point too deeply, but I'm not sure how far the "exclusive territorial rights" go. Presumably individuals, but not businesses, have been allowed to buy from other suppliers for some time. World Sailing's OCPT&C doesn't seem to affect those rights.
Last edited by a moderator:
Using a standard inflation calculator and assuming that was a 1975 price, that would equate to about $7300 today. An standard Laser from West Coast ($6990) with Seitech dolly ($485) and the cheaper of the two foil bags ($95) totals $7570. Although other consumer goods have dropped in price dramatically, the Laser price seems pretty good on a straight inflation-adjusted level.
Europe might boast the most ILCA members but not necessarily the most lasers. Its a Euro thing that all boat owners join the class association whether they actually race or not. In other places its only those who go to national regattas who get forced to join the association. Most club racers do not bother. Hence the member numbers are low but the boat numbers are not necessarily so. It matters a lot when it comes to voting, which gives Europe and LPE an advantage. And it matters a lot in terms of market where the un registerd owners still count, so the rest of the world wins here but only if they can win the vote. Its a fight between two businesses with the sailors just the tools.
Gouvernail
Lottsa people don’t know I’m famous
I posted a longer version of this on the other thread:
i wanted to dump the Laser name and go with Kirby’s Torch.
The current move by the soon to be former ILCA officers might be the absolute best thing for the game of sailing.
ONLY if you fully comprehend what I wrote above, read on:
By what right and under whose authority may the ILCA officers reassign the ILCA assets to a new organization??
I have been searching through the Class Constitution and by laws and I do it see ANYTHING that empowers the class officers to shut it down.
There is verbiage about the builder owning the various rights to the word Laser
Last I knew, the ILCA had about a half million bucks in its account. I do not see ANY provisions for re-assigning those assets to a new organization.
Summary: Even if we love this idea, it seems to me, there likely needs to be some very serious and public discussions and probably membership votes before any such change can be implemented.
If not.... What if next year somebody else wants to do it again??
Please read my opening one more time.
It dies not matter whether this is a great idea or a lousy idea. What matters?? May it be done??
i wanted to dump the Laser name and go with Kirby’s Torch.
The current move by the soon to be former ILCA officers might be the absolute best thing for the game of sailing.
ONLY if you fully comprehend what I wrote above, read on:
By what right and under whose authority may the ILCA officers reassign the ILCA assets to a new organization??
I have been searching through the Class Constitution and by laws and I do it see ANYTHING that empowers the class officers to shut it down.
There is verbiage about the builder owning the various rights to the word Laser
Last I knew, the ILCA had about a half million bucks in its account. I do not see ANY provisions for re-assigning those assets to a new organization.
Summary: Even if we love this idea, it seems to me, there likely needs to be some very serious and public discussions and probably membership votes before any such change can be implemented.
If not.... What if next year somebody else wants to do it again??
Please read my opening one more time.
It dies not matter whether this is a great idea or a lousy idea. What matters?? May it be done??
Wavedancer II
Anarchist
- 742
- 197
Gouv,
It's my, perhaps naïve, understanding that ILCA would just change its name (to get rid of the trademarked 'Laser'). Would that be 'unconstitutional'?
Paragraph 17 of the ILCA constitution outlines a (cumbersome) process for amending the Constitution.
I also think (optimistically) that the ILCA leadership team has thought this issue through prior to starting the 'revolution'.
It's my, perhaps naïve, understanding that ILCA would just change its name (to get rid of the trademarked 'Laser'). Would that be 'unconstitutional'?
Paragraph 17 of the ILCA constitution outlines a (cumbersome) process for amending the Constitution.
I also think (optimistically) that the ILCA leadership team has thought this issue through prior to starting the 'revolution'.
Last edited by a moderator:
Gouvernail
Lottsa people don’t know I’m famous
Nobody cares more about Laser sailing than Tracy and I am certain Tracy HAS spent a ton of time and effort considering what is best and is doing EXACTLY what he believes is best.
I am also certain there will be a ton of challenges and questions asked. Because I am able to formulate a bunch of questions and describe arguments suggesting the ILCA officers have no power to do as they are doing, I am concerned.
Please read my comments as you would read feedback if someone who cares were to look over a set of Sailing Instructions you had written for a regatta. It is always a helpful friendly gesture to let somebody know, “You shouldn’t include this. This can be re-phrased. You left out this. This instruction is redundant.”
i have found no documents which make it clear to me our officers may take the actions they have taken or those actions they have suggested they are about to take.
I am concerned the class executives are about to take action for which they have no authority.
I am concerned they will find themselves in a very bad position.
Finally:
**Practicality may say, no one can stop them and no one even wants to stop them.
*** By taking actions for which they are given no power by the ILCA Constitution, they may be operating so far outside their authority as ILCA officers whatever “ILCA Officer Liability Policy” exists may not cover their actions.
***”Because it is the right thing to do” is often not sufficient justification.
I am concerned.
Last edited by a moderator:
JimC
Not actually an anarchist.
Over concerned I'd say. Classes, companies etc change their names all the time. That cannot be an issue.
Gouvernail
Lottsa people don’t know I’m famous
The ILCA is not simply changing its name. The argument can easily be made It us abandoning its mission.
The ILCA is quite specifically defined as having to do with Lasers.
Its rules clearly State the Lasers must be built by an entity that has the rights to use the Laser name and logo.
The Laser is still being manufactured by companies who own the rights to use those.
This is not a simple make change.
This is a group of individuals deciding to use the organization to organize and promote the Gamma
One more time so I won’t get flamed by fools who wish to invent their own versions of my motivations. >>>>>
I wanted to switch to Torch. I don’t think it was possible then and I don’t think it is possible to simply become the Gamma Class.
....
If you believe my concerns are simple to address, please describe where it says how the ILCA officers can make the desired change.
I would love to be convinced everything is OK
The ILCA is quite specifically defined as having to do with Lasers.
Its rules clearly State the Lasers must be built by an entity that has the rights to use the Laser name and logo.
The Laser is still being manufactured by companies who own the rights to use those.
This is not a simple make change.
This is a group of individuals deciding to use the organization to organize and promote the Gamma
One more time so I won’t get flamed by fools who wish to invent their own versions of my motivations. >>>>>
I wanted to switch to Torch. I don’t think it was possible then and I don’t think it is possible to simply become the Gamma Class.
....
If you believe my concerns are simple to address, please describe where it says how the ILCA officers can make the desired change.
I would love to be convinced everything is OK
JimC
Not actually an anarchist.
The change has been made by many other class associations in the past. Dumping builders on bad terms, changing names, none of this is anything that hasn't happened before.
I'm sure there will be lawyers involved, and it will all get nasty, but nothing is very novel here. The European group is a complication, but I'm not sure what standing that body actually has with World sailing, and how world sailing and the National bodies would react to a seccession.
I'm sure there will be lawyers involved, and it will all get nasty, but nothing is very novel here. The European group is a complication, but I'm not sure what standing that body actually has with World sailing, and how world sailing and the National bodies would react to a seccession.
chuso007
Super Anarchist
In my fleet (9 lasers) no one is affiliated to the class... And we are definitely in Europe.
Paying 50€ in exchange of nothing seems pretty stupid, maybe if any of us wants to participate in the Galician Championship we would join the class, but then we'd have to buy legal sails, legal rudders and legal spars. Too expensive.
IPLore
Super Anarchist
1. Keep the trade mark and the name and used the equitable claim of "acquiescence" . A defensive claim of acquiescence may be available where the trademark owner has represented to the user (ie ILCA) that the mark may be used and the user relies on that representation to its prejudice (Such that if ILCA was forced to drop the trademark, they would be harmed). Knowledge that ILCA was using the mark for decades and not doing anything about it will strengthen a claim of "acquiescence". A license agreement between LuP and the ILCA allowing ILCA to use the trademark will undermine a defense of acquiescence.
2.Keep the name and claim a "fair use" or "functional" use of the trademark. The ILCA might be entitled to use the word Laser on its website or even in its name to indicate that it is an association for Laser owners provided it does not convey the impression that there is a commercial connection or affiliation with LP. For example a Jaguar repair shop in Boston can use the word Jaguar on its website and even in its name provided it is clear that it is not an authorized Jaguar dealership : http://www.brooklinejaguarbmw.com/
3. Drop the trade mark, keep the name and claim that the word "Laser" is generic and is not a trademark if it is unaccompanied by the sunburst logo. I would rate the chances of success of this option as close to zero because the word "Laser" in relation to boats is quite clearly "arbitrary" not "generic" and thus is a trademark, similar to Apple with regard to computers.
4. Drop the trademark and the name but make the cross reference . International Gamma Class Association - representing the owners of boats formerly known as Lasers. I think this is the safest and most likely option. Option #2 would have been a good one for the Sunfish Class but since the ILCA is going to appoint additional builders, I think #2 would be difficult.
Hope this is helpful IPL.
