Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

[Bill5]

1. Keep the trade mark and the name and used the equitable claim of "acquiescence" . A defensive claim of acquiescence may be available where the trademark owner has  represented to the user (ie ILCA) that the mark may be used and the user relies on that representation to its prejudice (Such that if ILCA was forced to drop the trademark, they would be harmed). Knowledge that ILCA was using the mark for decades and not doing anything about it will strengthen a claim of "acquiescence".  A license agreement between LuP and the ILCA allowing ILCA to use the trademark will undermine a defense of acquiescence.

2.Keep the name and claim a "fair use" or "functional" use of the trademark.    The ILCA might be entitled to use the word Laser on its website or even in its name to indicate that it is an association for Laser owners provided it does not convey the impression that there is a commercial connection or affiliation with LP.   For example a Jaguar repair shop in Boston can use the word Jaguar on its website and even in its name provided it is clear that it is not an authorized Jaguar dealership : http://www.brooklinejaguarbmw.com/

3. Drop the trade mark, keep the name and claim that the word "Laser" is generic and is not a trademark if it is unaccompanied by the sunburst logo. I would rate the chances of success of this option as close to zero because the word "Laser" in relation to boats is quite clearly "arbitrary" not "generic" and thus is a trademark, similar to Apple with regard to computers.

4. Drop the trademark and the name but make the cross reference .  International Gamma Class Association - representing the owners of boats formerly known as Lasers.   I think this is the safest and most likely option. Option #2 would have been a good one for the Sunfish Class but since the ILCA is going to appoint additional builders, I think #2 would be difficult.

Hope this is helpful IPL.

From the link Tillerman provided on Saturday, here are a few Q's and A's from the ILCA:

"Q: Will boats from the newly-named builders be sold under the LASER brand?

A: No. In order to avoid trademark issues and to comply with the requirements of European competition law, all current and future ILCA-approved builders will sell boats under a new brand name. ILCA and the current approved builders are finalizing the intellectual property details for the new brand, including fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory (FRAND) licensing rules. ILCA expects to announce the new brand name in the next four weeks.

Q: If the name of the boat changes, what will happen to my Laser? Will it still be legal to race?

A: All current, class-legal Lasers are and will remain ILCA class-legal. The proposed change simply changes the brand name to avoid trademark complications. The new system would allow class-legal Lasers (those with World Sailing Plaques) to participate in any ILCA event along with the new, alternately branded boats. After all, it’s the boat that matters, not the brand!

Q: How can the Laser stay in the Olympics if the name of the boat changes?

A: The name of the Olympic events that include the Laser are the “Men’s and Women’s One-Person Dinghy,” and the name of the boat is irrelevant to the Olympics. Like ILCA and World Sailing, the International Olympic Committee cares about events, athletes and equipment, not brands.

Q: Is World Sailing aware of these changes?

A: Yes. ILCA has kept World Sailing fully informed during this process and we continue to work in close cooperation with the governing body of our sport."

So, it appears they have pretty much decided already to go with 4. 

 

[IPLore]

From the link Tillerman provided on Saturday, here are a few Q's and A's from the ILCA:

"Q: Will boats from the newly-named builders be sold under the LASER brand?

A: No. In order to avoid trademark issues and to comply with the requirements of European competition law, all current and future ILCA-approved builders will sell boats under a new brand name. ILCA and the current approved builders are finalizing the intellectual property details for the new brand, including fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory (FRAND) licensing rules. ILCA expects to announce the new brand name in the next four weeks.

Q: If the name of the boat changes, what will happen to my Laser? Will it still be legal to race?

A: All current, class-legal Lasers are and will remain ILCA class-legal. The proposed change simply changes the brand name to avoid trademark complications. The new system would allow class-legal Lasers (those with World Sailing Plaques) to participate in any ILCA event along with the new, alternately branded boats. After all, it’s the boat that matters, not the brand!

Q: How can the Laser stay in the Olympics if the name of the boat changes?

A: The name of the Olympic events that include the Laser are the “Men’s and Women’s One-Person Dinghy,” and the name of the boat is irrelevant to the Olympics. Like ILCA and World Sailing, the International Olympic Committee cares about events, athletes and equipment, not brands.

Q: Is World Sailing aware of these changes?

A: Yes. ILCA has kept World Sailing fully informed during this process and we continue to work in close cooperation with the governing body of our sport."

So, it appears they have pretty much decided already to go with 4. 

I think #4 is the most likely option.  However do not confuse the builders with the class association.

Remember that in Japan, Australia and NZ, the boat will still be called the Laser and can still use the Laser logo and trademark. The boats built in Europe and North America prior to the termination of Laser performance are still entitled to be called Lasers. The International Class Association still represents all of those owners and , I would argue, would have a strong case to claim a "fair use" or "functional use" of the word Laser in their name.  For sure I think they will be able to use the name copiously and conspicuously in their website and class communications.

Boats from any newly appointed builder in NA and Europe will not be able to use the name without permission from LP(or actually from Vellum a separate offshore company owned by Rasty) and that is what the FAQ refers to.

I  think the ILCA come across as generally sensible people who will probably opt for a variation of option 4 because it reduces the potential for  litigation.....although based on past history LP will probably sue anyway.

One reason for ILCA not to wait until end of August to start this process is that they 5 months to transition to a well publicized new name.

 

[tillerman]

I think #4 is the most likely option.  However do not confuse the builders with the class association.

Remember that in Japan, Australia and NZ, the boat will still be called the Laser and can still use the Laser logo and trademark.

One of ILCA FAQs says, "In order to avoid trademark issues and to comply with the requirements of European competition law, all current and future ILCA-approved builders will sell boats under a new brand name." 

By current ILCA-approved builders, don't they mean PSA and PSJ? It sounds to me as if they plan to use the new name in Japan, Australia and NZ too.

I don't see why they would have to do that, but I am guessing it makes things a lot less confusing for all concerned if all the new ILCA approved dinghies have the same name all over the world.

 

 

[dgmckim]

Bring Back the Weekender!!

 

[Gouvernail]

May as well drop this here too

https://www.laserperformance.us/ilca-news?lang=en_US

 

[Sailabout]

Nobody cares more about Laser sailing than Tracy and I am certain Tracy HAS  spent a ton of time and effort considering what is best and is doing EXACTLY what he believes is best. 

I am also certain there will be a ton of challenges and questions asked. Because I am able to formulate a bunch of questions and describe arguments suggesting the ILCA officers have no power to do as they are doing, I am concerned.

Please read my comments as you would read feedback if someone who cares were to look over a set of Sailing Instructions you had written for a regatta. It is always a helpful friendly gesture to let somebody know,  “You shouldn’t include this. This can be re-phrased. You left out this. This instruction is redundant.”

i have found no documents which make it clear to me our officers may take the actions they have taken or those actions they have suggested they are about to take. 

I am concerned the class executives are about to take action for which they have no authority. 

I am concerned they will find themselves in a very bad position. 

Finally:

**Practicality may say, no one can stop them and no one even wants to stop them.

*** By taking actions for which they are given no power by the ILCA Constitution, they  may be operating so far outside their authority as ILCA officers whatever “ILCA Officer Liability Policy” exists may not cover their actions. 

***”Because it is the right thing to do”  is often not sufficient justification. 

I am concerned. 

you need to check on what kind of organization it is and under whose jurisdiction

 

[Gouvernail]

It is currently a messed up organization 

 

[VWAP]

2019 Laser Europa Cup France – 412 sailors will start racing tomorrow in Hyeres

http://eurilca.org/2019-laser-europa-cup-france-412-sailors/?fbclid=IwAR0-wM26isMn_V3oGVpN1oN9boEKZww_UR2Wl7iYXNZiWP6j3K-2jkYBsAg

 

[VWAP]

https://www.trofeoprincesasofia.org/en/default/races/race-resultsall#

https://www.trofeoprincesasofia.org/en/default/races/race-resultsall

 

[VWAP]

http://www.regattanetwork.com/event/16691#_registration

http://www.regattanetwork.com/event/16725#_newsroom+results

http://www.regattanetwork.com/clubmgmt/applet_regatta_results.php?regatta_id=15600&show_laser_masters=1

 

[Tcatman]

Thanks VWAP    Look at the options for single handed racers in the US.... Haven't done the homework... but from the links above it seems that with respect to participation Lasers are on par with A cats and probably Finns   Followed by  a second tier of Hobie 14s, and 17s and Sunfish and I guess the Moth brings up the rear with 10 or so boats.  

I am surprised that the numbers are so close.... and it is just Hard to be impressed with 50 to 60 boat turnouts.... when J70s get those kinds of numbers. 

 

[VWAP]

Thanks VWAP    Look at the options for single handed racers in the US.... Haven't done the homework... but from the links above it seems that with respect to participation Lasers are on par with A cats and probably Finns   Followed by  a second tier of Hobie 14s, and 17s and Sunfish and I guess the Moth brings up the rear with 10 or so boats.  

I am surprised that the numbers are so close.... and it is just Hard to be impressed with 50 to 60 boat turnouts.... when J70s get those kinds of numbers. 

 Not sure what your point is comparing the Laser to dissimilar boats? 

It appears you do not, never have sailed a laser

 

[torrid]

The main advantage of the Laser is not the number of boats sailing in a national championship, but that you can find a fleet of them in just about any location in the country.

 

[VWAP]

The main advantage of the Laser is not the number of boats sailing in a national championship, but that you can find a fleet of them in just about any location in the country.

You are correct. Unfortunately ongoing false information is being spread about the demise of the current class,  of what is actually  going on including false information concerning availability of parts and boats by a few people  

 

[Bill5]

Fake Laser news.

 

[torrid]

I get it, not everybody likes the Laser.  The boat does have its faults, and the class drama of the last years (decade actually) I'm sure turns many people off.  However, it is still the most commonly raced sailboat.

 

[Tcatman]

The main advantage of the Laser is not the number of boats sailing in a national championship, but that you can find a fleet of them in just about any location in the country.

OK....but most of the time, class health is compared by looking at NA participation...  (see the reports by Roger Jolley).   My surprise was how tepid the Laser class support for championships is....  In the context of upset at the international level including olympics...  .... the rank and file are not going to give a damn... OR pay dues... Or much care what you call the local class they sail in.

 

[VWAP]

I see you quoted me

After you wrote what is below responding to Emilio, someone who is actually active in the class in a positive way,   I no longer read any of your nonsense.

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/206926-laser-c6-rig-from-the-front-page/&page=2&tab=comments#comment-6525460


On 2/27/2019 at 11:28 PM, Emilio Castelli said:
Don't know where this is coming from but I think you should apologize.

E


I think you should go fuck yourself!! 

I am sick and tired of assholes who deliberately twist the writings or speech of  others to suit their need to make those others look bad. 

You had to maliciously edit my post to quote it in such a manner as you did. 

If you want to get your rocks  off by pulling shit like that, invent a sock puppet and go play your games in Political Anarchy where that sort of behavior is tolerated and perhaps even encouraged. 

 

[torrid]

OK....but most of the time, class health is compared by looking at NA participation...  (see the reports by Roger Jolley).   My surprise was how tepid the Laser class support for championships is....  In the context of upset at the international level including olympics...  .... the rank and file are not going to give a damn... OR pay dues... Or much care what you call the local class they sail in.

Lasers appeal to a very broad range of sailor.  Only a very small fraction would be interested in traveling across the country to sail in a major regatta.

Finn is a different beast, only really sailed by advanced sailors.  A larger chunk of them would want to go to something like a national championship.

 

[MR.CLEAN]

OK....but most of the time, class health is compared by looking at NA participation...  (see the reports by Roger Jolley). 

Tcatman I think you may be the only person on the planet who thinks worldwide class health is accurately depicted by roger jolley reports.