Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

[Tcatman]

Tcatman I think you may be the only person on the planet who thinks worldwide class health is accurately depicted by roger jolley reports.  

I like data... actual measurements... It beats anecdotes and blow hard marketing bullshit..   Just one measure of class health.... And its hard data.....and data that is public.      Show me data on weekend regatta participation in a class...   The only data I can point to is the Hobie Class association who run a national points system.   I was just surprised at how weak the US Laser world supports big championship events.

What better set of data would you look at to measure the participation and support for any single handed class in the USA?

 

[MR.CLEAN]

I like data... actual measurements... It beats anecdotes and blow hard marketing bullshit..   Just one measure of class health.... And its hard data.....and data that is public.      Show me data on weekend regatta participation in a class...   The only data I can point to is the Hobie Class association who run a national points system.   I was just surprised at how weak the US Laser world supports big championship events.

What better set of data would you look at to measure the participation and support for any single handed class in the USA?

There's data available for every euro and world championship too; NA is a stupid measure because NA participation is highly irrelevant to numbers when you look at international sailing as a whole.  The number of people who will spend the money to be in a class is probably the most useful measure of how many people are actually invested in a class.  That's available too.  

US Sailing has lots of data if you're interested in US market's health, but it's poorly organized and hard to search if i remember from the last time I asked.

 

[Gouvernail]

The facts about US Laser  sailing participation are pretty simple.

Since  Vanguard and the NA -ILCA quit fanatically promoting, the game has died off a little. It is still FAR AND AWAY the most active sailing fleet in North America but it quit growing in September 2002.

When LP took over, the builder support diminished significantly and in the  last few years the supply of boats and parts has been an issue. 

At the top levels, sailors simply jump through the necessary hoops and secure equipment for themselves.

At the club level, there is no arms race and the game is simply being played with older toys and some aftermarket parts. 

The walk on customer who impulse buys a pretty Sailboat is no longer a factor.  New sailors are not joins fleets from that source. 

As lasers do have a 10 to 20 year service life for local short course sailing, the established local fleets  are still able to play their games. 

In fact, local fleets are effectively beating the bushes and finding in-used toys, cleaning them up, and putting those boats under sailors. 

It is difficult to measure the exact current effect of the supply issues on local fleets or when short supply will sufficiently affect turnout to significantly damage tho local game . 

In Austin I see that time approaching and believe, unless we can get a supply of new toys, by 2024 our sailors will not be interested in the old recycled tired toys. 

I look forward to the day when we once again have an enthusiastic supportive builder of large firsts of singlehanded racing toys. 

in the  meantime, come play with us in our old stuff!!!

https://americasfavoriteboatshop.com/36th-easter-laser-regatta

. 

View attachment 764611FB-2EB0-46A2-AA7B-1A27AC369212.bmp

 

[Tcatman]

The number of people who will spend the money to be in a class is probably the most useful measure of how many people are actually invested in a class.  That's available too.   

Answer the question... what data do YOU evaluate to assess the relative health of any class.... local to international.

On this specific point of NAs...   I think you look at the number of people who spend time and real money to support the class.... that is why I like the NA or Worlds participation and not class membership where you pay  a small amount to join so they can vote to keep things from changing.. (See Tornado Class Association voting down spins  despite ISAF gun to head re Olympics)

And for the laser class cluster fuck... isn't one of the concerns of EU laser sailors about the US rump and tail... wagging the dog?      Why would you not look at US Nationals turnout and say.. WTF... 60 people in NORTH AMERICA bothered to show up....  Why do we care what the hell they think?

.

 

[Curious]

OK....but most of the time, class health is compared by looking at NA participation...  (see the reports by Roger Jolley).   My surprise was how tepid the Laser class support for championships is....  In the context of upset at the international level including olympics...  .... the rank and file are not going to give a damn... OR pay dues... Or much care what you call the local class they sail in.

Well, perhaps you should do your homework. The last class reports to World Sailing, for example, say that there were 92 A Class members in the USA compared to 1611 Laser members and 110 Finn sailors (the latter is the latest figure, from 2016). So by that measure, the others can't compare.

By the measure of boats sold and averaged over the last few years, the Laser and Opti dominate utterly. There are some 2000 Lasers sold each year, with numbers dropping but still about 1600 at last report.  Of the other classes you mention there are 200 Finns, 190 J/70s and about 75 A Class sold annually. The Aero is selling at about 400 per year.

You say that class health is usually compared by looking at NA participation, which (for US fleets) is reasonable with the proviso that popular classes normally attract a far smaller proportion of their overall fleet to the nationals for logical reasons.  Obviously, looking at NA attendances must also include the separate Masters, Youth, Women or Junior fleets in classes that run them. So let's look at the 2014-16 average, trying to avoid double counting those who did Masters, Open and Junior titles.

The list therefore goes;  Opti 248 boats, Sabot 167 (both Jnr and Open), Laser Radial (both Open and Masters) 138, C420 113, Laser Standard (111 open and masters) and Sunfish (Open and Youth) 72. There were only 9 Laser 4.7s, in big contrast to their popularity in other areas.

For comparison the A Class fleet averaged 43, Hobie 14 about 15, Hobie 16 about 54. The Aero NA fleet numbers, counting 5, 7 and 9 together, were 38 in 2017, 18 in 2018 and 21 in 2019.  The Finn gets about 45 if one counts both Masters and Opens.

If fleets of well over 100 show "tepid" support for the Radial and Standard, then support for cats, J/70s and Finns must be called "frigid", and support for the class that people are hyping up as the Laser replacement (and for some other much-hyped classes) must be called "freezing". The support for the Tornado would appear to be below Zero Kelvin.

You've said that you hate classes like the Laser, which seems pretty bizarre. Your hate is obviously affecting your judgement.

 

[Gouvernail]

I sailed a sixty boat J-22 world’s whenbtgere were about 160,000 Lasers.

part of our travel time was spent considering if the same percentage (6000 of 160,000) of Lasers showed up at a regatta.

at one boat length per boat we would need a 14 mile starting line.

the weather leg  would have to be over 14 miles to force everybody to tack 

a sailor would have to choose the favored end hours before the start 

Lake Ontario could handle the course but it would take a day at Kingston  to get everybody launched and the course would have to be centered about twenty miles from the harbor. 

Here’s an idea!! Why don’t all of you reading this come on down to Austin next week and we can show everybody just how popular Laser sailing is!!!

https://americasfavoriteboatshop.com/36th-easter-laser-regatta

 

[Gouvernail]

I see you quoted me

After you wrote what is below .... etc..

OK. Between your comments and those by Wess,  I agree we ( yes WE) must stop this shit.

I shall no longer write disparaging stuff about you and you shall no longer write disparaging stuff about me. 

Neither of us will question the motivations of the other except to HONESTLY ask for a specific explanation sbout “what motivated you to take that position?” when we actually do disagree. 

I am hosting my the 36th annual regatta in Lasers next weekend. 

I do not expect to ever again to read where anyone suggests I am out to “get” the laser game or harm it in any way. 

You all know perfectly well that is utter and complete nonsense. 

I seriously  doubt there is an individual on this planet who has invested a larger percentage of his net worth in organization and promotion of the Laser game. 

The fact It is disputable I might even be in the top ten or thousand says all anyone needs to know about my motivations. 

Last: others suggest VWAP contributes to the game.

for that reason I must quit making disparaging remarks about him and encourage others to do the same.

if one of the “rewards” for passionately contributing is to be treated as a pariah, we certainly can’t expect any sane people to serve as passionate contributors. 

Kumbayah @VWAP. We are on the same team 

 

[Otterbox]

I am amazed and saddened that this thread continues more than six years after I started it. 

My question about Santander Worlds 2014 is why did LPE not supply the boats?

I remember the Australian did that for the 2011 Worlds.

I also remember hearing here in Britain in 2016, over a pint from someone who had been working with them that LPE had to improve their build methods. I don't know if it’s true but apparently, they had been cutting corners.

It seems all the builders tightened their manufacturing tolerances, as a result of ILCA doing a lot of measuring in Santander.  

I've been told by a High-Performance Sailing Squad member that the PSA boats used to last longer but recent British built boats are a lot better.  So good for ILCA!!

I guess having ILCA inspectors going into the factories would be a sensible part of that ongoing quality checking?  Oh yes, is that an issue?
 

 

[OneGoat]

Look into your crystal ball:

You are at a Laser Regatta and some sailors who are Class members and oreregisteted show up with brand new Lasers. 

Their boats and sails are just like every other boat except for lacking the sticker that says ILCA approved. 

These sailors can request for a qualified ICLA post-build measurer to inspect their boats for compliance with class drawings and apparent adherence to build instructions.

If found to be compliant, they will have a special retro-compliance sticker affixed to their boat.

This retro-compliance certification inspection would be thorough, and would come at a significant price and inconvenience. Cheaper than buying a whole new boat (with sticker affixed), but certainly a significant cost burden to whose who have unstickered boats. Enough cost that it would rule out any temptation to buy a cheap (but assumed class-compliant) knock-off from an uncertified factory (in Europe or China or wherever) and retro-comply it in. But, at least, available as an avenue to legality for those who bought a Laser in good faith without realising that they actually needed to buy a Torch (or whatever it's to be called this week).

Feasible?

 

[Sailabout]

still looks like all problems are solved by doing this..

Laser

find and replace with

Torch

 

[Gouvernail]

Here is one general situation  about which I am pretty certain.

Building  and marketing  Lasers is a special  business that requires a skill set very few individuals or even companies currently possess. 

The return on investment is not particularly great, and in fact is so pathetic, only someone who “just wants to build racing sailboats” wouid ever consider making the initial investment. 

Investors do not like having threats to their investment which they cannot entirely control.

Every  previous supplier of Lasers for the North American region has owned the trademark rights and has therefore been able to operate as that company has seen fit. Certainly  the racing sailor club has asked the builders to keep the boats about the same but the builders have ALWAYS gone ahead and made whatever changes were best for their bottom line.

Now the Class is reorganizing and attempting to gain more control. The rights to the Gamma would  come from class to builder rather than the other way around.

As a person who has had a sailboat  organization decide willy nilly to evaporate my $100,000 +_ investment in facilities, equipment, and inventory, there us no way in hell I would ever invest millions in a manufacturing and marketing company whose rights were controlled by a volunteer run non-profit. 

My guess is no sensible businessman would do so either. 

For whatever set of still unknown to me reasons,  LP’s management has decided not to try to make money growing, tending to, and harvesting the financial fruits of the Laser sailing game in North America. . 

I cannot imagine LP’s  management would be more likely to reenter the market  while having less control of its capital investment. 

I really do not see a positive outcome on the horizon. 

The available cornball analogies are endless. 

**ILCA jumped off the sinking ship because there is a place in Australia where they build lifeboats 

**the ILCA had to get away from the abusive LP and has grabbed the kids and moved into the battered association center 

**After endless attempts to reach a solution the ILCA simply is trying something else 

**After finding himself on a narrow dead end street the bus driver called the dispatcher who suggested he turn around. 

*********

Which reminds me... some of you may be blaming Tracy for this mess. Or maybe blaming Bill Crane. I do not think either one contributed to the situation in a manner for which “blame” is appropriate. Neither has that much power. 

so... I thought somebody might find the humor of inappropriate blame as described in this video 

 

[IPLore]

Why are there only three threads on this topic? 

Does it deserve its own forum like the AC? Surely yes.

 

[Otterbox]

I started this thread in March 2013, I am appalled we are still talking about Laser copyright, more than six years later, the idea that we need a whole forum on the same subject is depressing, noooooo.

 

[Gouvernail]

@Otterbox if you were to re-title this thread, what would it be??

 

[Otterbox]

That is a very good question , what do you think?  Maybe 'The Kirby Dinghy - the ongoing saga´  

 

[Otterbox]

Given there is so much information on this thread, maybe its a good idea, I wonder if Scot would do it? 

 

[IPLore]

May I suggest a thread title:

The LOTR trilogy.

An epic saga about Lasers, Olympics ,Trolls and Rasty soon to be made into a  movie by Peter Jackson

Featuring Farzad Rastegar and his "precious" trade mark.

 

[IPLore]

Paid up current members of the ILCA don't think the actions of the ILCA were OK.

And they still don't.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

I am amazed and saddened that this thread continues more than six years after I started it. 

My question about Santander Worlds 2014 is why did LPE not supply the boats?

I'm not so surprised. Lasers / ILCA dinghies are an important part of the global sailing scene.

Re the Santander worlds in 2014, my understanding is that there needs to be financing of the boats built for contests where the bots are supplied, and there were issues with LPE securing the necessary finance - so LPE didn't build the boats. This was at the height of the legal action, so there may have been other factors involved, but at the end of the day, if nobody financed the building, the boats weren't built.

This topic has moved a long way in the last six years. Six years ago, the issues included the Kirby legal action, and the 2011 fundamental rule change which controversially helped LPE according to Kirby. Since then, the ILCA has changed the exec (In my view, Tracy Usher and Eric Faust are doing a great job), Jeff Martin has passed away, and recent changes to the legal situation mean that there is a definite way forward for the class. 

Maybe it's time to retire this thread.

 

[IPLore]

Tiller Man's most recent post hen picks the facts and ignores the issues that the ILCA currently face.

The fate of the ILCA is in the hands of Andy, Tracy and "other class leaders", glossing over the relevant yet again. These "other class leaders"  represent entities other than the ILCA . Andy has stated on this forum and said that Bill Crane is a great guy, and "gets it" - hardly a neutral thing to say...The membership of the ILCA World Council seem to be a great recipe for dysfunctionality! What Tiller Man is saying is naive, when the hands of the ILCA themselves have such obvious conflicts.

Tiller Man is in-step with the official 'we are safe hands' line that the ILCA rolled out a few years back - but out of step with reality.

Maybe Laser sailors want an ILCA that is more democratic and transparent in it's actions.

Glad to see that Gantt has revised his opinion of the class organization and the good folks like Andy Roy