Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

JimC

Not actually an anarchist.
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Its seems rather silly doesn't it! Especially when all you have to do is temporarily tie a bit of string or something to the boat somewhere which technically puts it out of class, and then its no longer subject to ILCA authority. It would be interesting to know the reason for that phrase. I don't see anything so overarching in 470, 49er or Nacra 17 constitutions.
 

tillerman

Super Anarchist
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Its seems rather silly doesn't it! Especially when all you have to do is temporarily tie a bit of string or something to the boat somewhere which technically puts it out of class, and then its no longer subject to ILCA authority. It would be interesting to know the reason for that phrase. I don't see anything so overarching in 470, 49er or Nacra 17 constitutions.
I suspect there has been an error in drafting this clause. The Jurisdiction clause in the previous version of the constitution read,"The Association has authority over all activities of the Laser Class."
 
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I suspect there has been an error in drafting this clause. The Jurisdiction clause in the previous version of the constitution read,"The Association has authority over all activities of the Laser Class."
The revised version is a bit more precise. The previous version and the revised version are endeavoring to achieve the same objective through tying together the constitution to paragraph 9 of the Class rules.

Essentially you cannot race your Laser-like dinghy as an ILCA dinghy unless you are a class member of ILCA. When you become a class member of ILCA you agree to abide by the class rules AND the class constitution. If you choose not to become a class member then you cannot race in ILCA events (seems fair) but you also do not have to abide by ILCA class rules and the ILCA constitution......In effect, you are not participating in ILCA Class sailboat activities. If you race in your local club Portsmouth racing, then the handicap applied to your tweaked Laser-like boat is entirely between you and your club.

That said, there are some blatant drafting errors in the document and some interesting procedural questions raised.
 
For example....what is wrong with this revised clause in the constitution?

The World Council .. may make bylaws
(a) amending the ILCA Class Rules of the Laser Class, hereby established as bylaw 1 of the Association, as provided in paragraph 29 thereof;


That is sloppy draftsmanship.
 
An interesting procedural question. The existing constitution requires that at least two thirds of the membership vote in favor of an amendment in the constitution. The proposed amended constitution provides that an amendment is passed if it receives a two thirds majority from those members that vote.

It is a sensible amendment, but it has to be approved by 2/3rds of all existing members. An abstention from somebody who cannot be bothered to vote is as good as a "No" vote until this amendment is passed.
 

tillerman

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The revised version is a bit more precise. The previous version and the revised version are endeavoring to achieve the same objective through tying together the constitution to paragraph 9 of the Class rules.

Essentially you cannot race your Laser-like dinghy as an ILCA dinghy unless you are a class member of ILCA. When you become a class member of ILCA you agree to abide by the class rules AND the class constitution. If you choose not to become a class member then you cannot race in ILCA events (seems fair) but you also do not have to abide by ILCA class rules and the ILCA constitution......In effect, you are not participating in ILCA Class sailboat activities. If you race in your local club Portsmouth racing, then the handicap applied to your tweaked Laser-like boat is entirely between you and your club.

That said, there are some blatant drafting errors in the document and some interesting procedural questions raised.
I think I understand what you are saying.

Let's take an example. I have a 1995 Laser in the garage. I am not currently a member of ILCA. If I were to join ILCA then would my Laser (with a 1995 ISAF plaque) immediately become an "ILCA class sailboat?" Or is it still a Laser until I take part in an ILCA event? If I then do some recreational sailing the week after the event, does my boat revert to being a Laser or is it still an ILCA class sailboat?

Another example. I get tired of RS Aero sailing and buy a brand new ILCA from PSA because you can have them made in custom colors. I don't join the class immediately so what is the boat? Is it merely an ILCA or is it an ILCA class sailboat? If I were to join the class and enter an event should I register the boat as an ILCA or an ILCA class sailboat?
 

Wavedancer II

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The ILCA not only controls the builders and the class. It also has authority over all activities of every ILCA class sailboat sold anywhere in the world whether or not it is racing and whether or not its owner is a member of the ILCA. Or at least they say they do (assuming the changes to the constitution have been or will be approved by the members of the ILCA.)

4. JURISDICTION
The Association has authority over all activities of the ILCA class sailboat throughout the world.
Do ILCA class sailboats go out on their own and play games?
Or have they been equipped with robots and I wasn't told?
 

tillerman

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Do ILCA class sailboats go out on their own and play games?
Or have they been equipped with robots and I wasn't told?
ILCA class sailboats do not go out on their own and play games. The ILCA has very strict rules about how many humans must be aboard an ILCA Class sailboat and what clothing the humans may wear, and where they may not place any of their body parts. Robots would never put up with such rules.
 
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Bill5

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I think I understand what you are saying.

Let's take an example. I have a 1995 Laser in the garage. I am not currently a member of ILCA. If I were to join ILCA then would my Laser (with a 1995 ISAF plaque) immediately become an "ILCA class sailboat?" Or is it still a Laser until I take part in an ILCA event? If I then do some recreational sailing the week after the event, does my boat revert to being a Laser or is it still an ILCA class sailboat?

Another example. I get tired of RS Aero sailing and buy a brand new ILCA from PSA because you can have them made in custom colors. I don't join the class immediately so what is the boat? Is it merely an ILCA or is it an ILCA class sailboat? If I were to join the class and enter an event should I register the boat as an ILCA or an ILCA class sailboat?
I think you should breed your Aero with your Laser.
 

JimC

Not actually an anarchist.
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If I were to join ILCA then would my Laser (with a 1995 ISAF plaque) immediately become an "ILCA class sailboat?"

I submit you're being too cute. Because in class/out of class is a binary status boats can very easily stop being members of the class and then come back again. There's nothing special about the ILCA in that respect, just as true of the Aero or even the loosest of development classes. Heck, in most cases all you need to do is move a tape band on the spar 1/8 in further than allowed then move it back.
And that status is usually a package deal. There's nothing especially unusual about class rules limiting some aspect of crew behaviour. Is your Aero still in class if you have a second body on board.
As for is it a ILCA or a Laser? Well of course it can be both. That's not very unusual. I think, give or take a sail no and logo Europes still measure as International Moths, Fireflies as National 12s and other examples. Don't overthink!

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TBH a lot of class rules are a damn silly mess when it comes to association membership. Sailors just have a implicit consensus to ignore them at club level. Personally I say it's foolish to include things like CA membership in class rules. Put 'em in NOR or SIs if wanted/needed, but don' t have rules that are certain to be ignored outside major events. If you have one rule that's tacitly OK to ignore for the club Saturday handicap, then why is it not legit to ignore another... And another... And...
 
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tillerman

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I think you should breed your Aero with your Laser.
I submit you're being too cute. Because in class/out of class is a binary status boats can very easily stop being members of the class and then come back again. There's nothing special about the ILCA in that respect, just as true of the Aero or even the loosest of development classes. Heck, in most cases all you need to do is move a tape band on the spar 1/8 in further than allowed then move it back.
And that status is usually a package deal. There's nothing especially unusual about class rules limiting some aspect of crew behaviour. Is your Aero still in class if you have a second body on board.

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TBH a lot of class rules are a damn silly mess when it comes to association membership. Sailors just have a implicit consensus to ignore them at club level. Personally I say it's foolish to include things like CA membership in class rules. Put 'em in NOR or SIs if wanted/needed, but don' t have rules that are certain to be ignored outside major events. If you have one rule that's tacitly OK to ignore for the club Saturday handicap, then why is it not legit to ignore another... And another... And...
Yes, most classes have strict rules about all sorts of stuff that define whether a boat is legal to race in class-sanctioned events or not. But I don't know of any other classes that change the name of the boat if it is not following class rules.
My son's Laser was still a Laser when he took two of his kids for a ride on it. Not legal to race like that but still a Laser.
And if I rigged the JC strap on my Aero to the "wrong" fitting on the boom it would still be an RS Aero.

This discussion was triggered by IPLore's claim - if I understand him correctly - that the ILCA Constitution's claim to have "authority over all activities of the ILCA class sailboat" does make sense because an ILCA class sailboat ceases to be an ILCA class sailboat if it doesn't comply with ILCA class rules.
He may be right.
All of this confusion is a result, of course, of the decision by builders and dealers to call the boat an ILCA, while the class association also calls itself ILCA. Meanwhile most of the general public (and the organizers of many events) continue to call the boat a Laser.
 

Tcatman

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TBH a lot of class rules are a damn silly mess when it comes to association membership. Sailors just have a implicit consensus to ignore them at club level. Personally I say it's foolish to include things like CA membership in class rules. Put 'em in NOR or SIs if wanted/needed, but don' t have rules that are certain to be ignored outside major events. If you have one rule that's tacitly OK to ignore for the club Saturday handicap, then why is it not legit to ignore another... And another... And...
how about the quirky National Prescriptions.... eg US Coast Guard approved vests... Not Euro vests.... Per US Sailing perscriptions... or my all time favorite... the throwable for boats 18 feet and up! per US coast guard regulations.
 

JimC

Not actually an anarchist.
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And if I rigged the JC strap on my Aero to the "wrong" fitting on the boom it would still be an RS Aero.
From the POV of organised racing then no, it wouldn't be, at least according to an opinion I got from RYA rules service a few years ago.

Equally, then, if you alter your legal ILCA/Laser so it stops being a legitimate ILCA, the same alteration would have stopped it being a legitimate Laser back in Laser days.

But really you are just getting into logic chopping here. I see nothing in the rules and constitution that says if your ILCA is out of class it's a Laser.
 

tillerman

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From the POV of organised racing then no, it wouldn't be, at least according to an opinion I got from RYA rules service a few years ago.

Equally, then, if you alter your legal ILCA/Laser so it stops being a legitimate ILCA, the same alteration would have stopped it being a legitimate Laser back in Laser days.

But really you are just getting into logic chopping here. I see nothing in the rules and constitution that says if your ILCA is out of class it's a Laser.
Yes. But when my Laser was not a legitimate Laser because it had an extra bit of string, say, it was always a Laser. And the old Laser class did not claim to have authority over all Laser activity.

If I join the ILCA and enter the local district championship my boat becomes a legal ILCA class sailboat. But it is always a Laser too.
 
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JimC

Not actually an anarchist.
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Yes. But when my Laser was not a legitimate Laser because it had an extra bit of string, say, it was always a Laser.
That's the point, it wasn't.

Look, let's say it's before this mess started and there's a spectrum between fully compliant Laser and a frankenboat like the Lasers chopped up, shortened, rerigged, and converted to US Moth rules. Where on that spectrum, from a rules/sailing admin point of view, and bearing in mind RRS78, does the boat stop being a Laser?

And the only place you can draw a line, the only place that makes sense, is that the spot is where it stops complying with class rules.
 

tillerman

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That's the point, it wasn't.

Look, let's say it's before this mess started and there's a spectrum between fully compliant Laser and a frankenboat like the Lasers chopped up, shortened, rerigged, and converted to US Moth rules. Where on that spectrum, from a rules/sailing admin point of view, and bearing in mind RRS78, does the boat stop being a Laser?

And the only place you can draw a line, the only place that makes sense, is that the spot is where it stops complying with class rules.
I disagree. Nobody in their right mind would try to convert a Laser into a Moth.

A Laser is a consumer product. It has a trademark. A brand name. From the moment I picked up the Laser from the dealer to the day it is destroyed and thrown in the landfill. That's where I draw the line. It is always a Laser whatever some people in some association say. They can choose whether to let me play in their game but they can't change the fact that I bought a Laser and I still own a Laser.
Just like an association of Mac users can't decide whether this computer is a Mac or not. It will still be a Mac if I replace the battery or upgrade the memory, for example.
 




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