Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

[Reht]

Well I wonder if the escape clause had to do with the ability to collect License revenue from LP...

And LP didn't like the idea of having to pay their direct competition for the ability to produce the product.

It will be interesting to see who actually owns the construction manual, if Kirby Inc owns every copy then it could conceivably recall them all (though I'd imagine that if they could they would have already). Then the builder could claim their lasers are still the same, but they don't have that manual which was acting as a guarantee that it was the same as every other laser...

 

[Otterbox]

From what I understand the Laser Construction Manual (LCM) specifies the construction processes and bill of material to be followed to build a Laser. If Kirby does have the rights to the LCM, then it seems there is a Compaq-IBM scenario indeed.

I wonder who in ISAF or the ILCA has thought thru the fact that they do in fact have to follow the Compaq complete arms length approach to building an IBM compatible or they will in fact be thrashed in court and we as ILCA and ISAF members will be levied to pay the legal costs?

Have they already commissioned someone to follow this complex interative process? If they have not, when are they going to do this and how long will it take?

Will the new Laser be in fact identical in performance characteristics to the existing ones, or are all our existing Lasers going to be obsolete.

Are we Laser owners going to find our existing boats worthless?

If that happens is ISAF going to provide us all with new boats? ( I say ISAF, because the ILCA seems to be losing money already)

 

[Bill R]

I have a solution, dump the laser from the five ring circus, and get a newer design, anything that requires a challenge to keep it up and going fast.

The laser fleet can then slowly rot away and go back to what it was designed for sailing off a beach for fun.

the money saved in legal fees would be huge and people could go and find a better boat to sail, one that lasts a bit longer and doesn't cost and arm and a leg for bits. hell you could even get one with a decently designed and built sail, that would be a revolution.

 

[ojfd]

I have a solution, dump the laser from the five ring circus, and get a newer design, anything that requires a challenge to keep it up and going fast.

The laser fleet can then slowly rot away and go back to what it was designed for sailing off a beach for fun.

...

Apparently, there are some Olympic contracts still in place, but recent conflict have greatly accelerated the tempo at which this high-tech piece of engineering called Laser is heading to the exit.

ISAF REGULATIONS

23.1.6 Olympic Equipment contracts shall be agreed between ISAF and the

appropriate Classes and / or manufacturers by May 1st in the year four years

before the Olympic Sailing Competition. The contract shall require the Class to

be an ISAF Class at the first opportunity thereafter, and, in any event, prior

to the Olympic Games, and to remain an ISAF Class while it remains Olympic

Equipment.

In the event that ISAF is unable to agree the contract for particular

Equipment, Council shall decide alternative Equipment in November of the year

four years before the Olympic Sailing Competition from a list of Equipment

options provided by the ISAF Executive.

 

[Reht]

ISAF REGULATIONS

23.1.6 [...]

In the event that ISAF is unable to agree the contract for particular

Equipment, Council shall decide alternative Equipment in November of the year

four years before the Olympic Sailing Competition from a list of Equipment

options provided by the ISAF Executive.

Does that mean that somewhere there's a backup list of possible classes to replace the laser should everything really hit the fan hard and the boats aren't produced for a year or two?

 

[ojfd]

Does that mean that somewhere there's a backup list of possible classes to replace the laser should everything really hit the fan hard and the boats aren't produced for a year or two?

I very much hope so.

Now, take a look at another excerpt from current ISAF Regulations. Even equipment for Rio can be changed, if decided so:

23.1.4 Olympic Events and Equipment:

Mens Board - RS:X

Womens Board - RS:X

Men's One Person Dinghy - Laser

Women's One Person Dinghy - Laser Radial

Men's 2nd One Person Dinghy - Finn

Men's Skiff - 49er

Women's Skiff 49erFX

Men's Two Person Dinghy - 470

Women's Two Person Dinghy - 470

Mixed Two Person Multihull Nacra 17

23.1.7 Council may decide to change a specific part of Regulation 23.1.4 closer in time to the

Olympic Games than permitted in Regulation 23.1.3 if at least 75% of votes cast are in

favour of a motion to do so. In such an event, the timescales in regulation 23.1.3 shall not

apply, and any subsequent voting process shall ensure that an Event or Equipment is de-

selected, or new Event or Equipment is selected, only after a vote of more than 50% of

votes cast in favour of the decision.

 

[Reht]

Something tells me if they try that, unless they have a really good reason (like the boats aren't produced for a long time in the cycle), the IOC will just pull away the medals for those events.

We just got through the crazy period of arguing over who gets in, I'd highly doubt that ISAF really wants to go through all that again. Maybe they can bicker about each other long enough to make it to 2016 without killing the laser/torch. Is anyone still making them with this fight going on? Or is it just the Aussie builder (in which case this is a bad time to be a laser campaigner in NA or Europe)...

 

[SimonN]

Which leaves the question of whether the contracts are enforceable when, if there's no IP, there's no consideration. Presumably LP, ISAF and ILCA have had advice that, for some reason, the contracts are not enforceable. Unless they believe that, their behaviour is inexplicable.

For me, this is one of the keys. When ISAF first got legal advice, it was that BK had enforceable contracts and that BK had terminated the builders agreement with LP, as he was entitled to do. Because of this legal advice, ISAF instructed ILCA to stop issuing builders plaques. Reading the various statements since, ISAF's position on this point hasn't changed. Instead, they have now decided that BK's actions are in breach of agreement and because of this, they are no longer bound by any agreements and can change the fundamental rule.

 

[Surf-n-Turf]

It's frustrating seeing a solution to this be blocked by the ILCA. I don't know why they are so supportive of laser performance except there must be a lot of fishy connections between LP and the ILCA at the top levels.

Go to www.ISAF.org and tell me the first sponsor you see as event partner and supplier.

 

[RobG]

It's frustrating seeing a solution to this be blocked by the ILCA. I don't know why they are so supportive of laser performance except there must be a lot of fishy connections between LP and the ILCA at the top levels.

Go to www.ISAF.org and tell me the first sponsor you see as event partner and supplier.

There are a number of event partners listed (including Neilpryde, Ovington and Nautivela), I don't see anything suspicious about Maclaren being one too. The image is just a GIF.

 

[ojfd]

Something tells me if they try that, unless they have a really good reason (like the boats aren't produced for a long time in the cycle), the IOC will just pull away the medals for those events.

What makes you to think so?
The disciplines are:

1.Men's One Person Dinghy

2.Women's One Person Dinghy

Is Laser the only one singlehander on this planet? ;-)

Btw, one of the resons Laser Radial replaced Europe was that it was promised to ISAF that they will be able to supply enough boats to all big events, unlike Europe manufacturers at that time. I bet, there are some manufacturers right now, sitting on the fence, so to speak and ready to take Laser's place.

Is anyone still making them with this fight going on? Or is it just the Aussie builder (in which case this is a bad time to be a laser campaigner in NA or Europe)...

FWIW, my sources tell me that LP has bought (i.e. paid to BK according to contract!) enough plaques in the past to continue manufacturing boats for some time. Remember, manufacturers usually buy plaques upfront, before the actual boat is manufactured..This might be one of the reasons, why ISAF is so confident that there will be no shortages of boats for all core events and Olympics.

 

[Otterbox]

That is at complete odds with the exhibits provided for the US Federal Court by Bruce Kirby. They make interesting reading...

Accord to those documents ISAF/ILCA have been providing plaques to LPE which include Bruce Kirby´s name for which Bruce Kirby Inc. has definitely not been paid.

No one has produced evidence to the contrary. Even LPE are not claiming they have paid the royalties due for Lasers built in recent times.

So what are your sources that say differently??

 

[Surf-n-Turf]

It's frustrating seeing a solution to this be blocked by the ILCA. I don't know why they are so supportive of laser performance except there must be a lot of fishy connections between LP and the ILCA at the top levels.

Go to www.ISAF.org and tell me the first sponsor you see as event partner and supplier.

There are a number of event partners listed (including Neilpryde, Ovington and Nautivela), I don't see anything suspicious about Maclaren being one too. The image is just a GIF.

I just thought it was funny. As a board member for a non-profit, I know about getting sponsors. The bigger the donation, the bigger the ad space. I just never seen a LPE advertising before, even in the most recent Laser Sailor mag.

 

[redstar]

In all the speculation about legal minutiae, there are a couple of questions that have been missed that strike me as strange.

Takao Otani has been building Lasers in Japan just about forever - he's licensed to sell in Japan and South Korea. We didn't hear much from him during the original Global Sailing dispute (not outside his region at least), but he was considered an ally of Kirby and GS. Why isn't he now on the list of licensed Torch builders? At this stage PSA appear to have been given his territory (along with the rest of Asia which used to belong to LPE). He has been involved with and been a huge supporter of the Laser class for many, many years. I'd love to hear his perspective.

Secondly, during the original rule change voting while Global Sailing owned the BKI rights, we were told (by Kirby) that GS had cancelled the building contract with LPE. This was in mid-2011. Kirby then re-acquired the rights in September 2011. Why then do his court documents state that he cancelled the LPE building contract late in 2012? What happened between mid-2011 and late 2012?

 

[Bruno]

finns with radial sails?

 

[VWAP]

finns with radial sails?

 

[Bruno]

ok by me

 

[Otterbox]

Went looking for the Fundamental Rule intro on the ILCA site today. Its been taken down.

I recall there was some pretty vivid language that I thought at the time it seemed to treat the truth a little lightly. Does anyone have a file copy?

Be interesting to see how it stacks up, now with the passing of time.

As Clean says if there is any mis.statement there, the consequences for the ILCA in the Kirby lawsuit might be significant.

 

[ojfd]

Went looking for the Fundamental Rule intro on the ILCA site today. Its been taken down.

Huh?

http://laserinternational.org/info/statementfromtheinternationallaserclassassociation

 

[SimonN]

gouv

There are other deliberate 'misdirections" in the document that the ILCA sent out to inform members of why they needed to vote on the issue. Or were they simply examples of gross incompetence and a lack of care in carrying out their duties as class officers, namely to correctly inform members of what the issues were.