Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

[RobbieB]

IMO there's no longer a "mess". LPE failed as a class builder. The class separated itself from LPE. Since LPE held/holds the "Laser" name rights The ILCA class needed a different name for new builders to build under. That was done. LPE has moved on with the "Port Star".
It's over folks.

 

[torrid]

IMO there's no longer a "mess". LPE failed as a class builder. The class separated itself from LPE. Since LPE held/holds the "Laser" name rights The ILCA class needed a different name for new builders to build under. That was done. LPE has moved on with the "Port Star".
It's over folks.

We should put this thread out of our misery.

 

[Xeon]

As I told Gouv. The war is won , stop posting if you want the thread to die

 

[tillerman]

I don't want this thread to die.
I have a question. If the boat is called an ILCA, shouldn't its international class association be called the International ILCA Class Association or IILCA for short?

 

[Dex Sawash]

I would prefer IILCACA

 

[tillerman]

I would prefer IILCACA

The new ILCA constitution generally refers to the boat as an ILCA Class Sailboat. So perhaps the international class association should be called the International ILCA Class Sailboat Class Association or IILCACSCA for short.

I bet they would sell more boats if they called the boat a Pornstar, and we could all sign up for the International Pornstar Association, IPA for short.

 

[Gouvernail]

Ignoring

 

[JimC]

Recursive acronyms are kinda, well fashionable is the wrong word, kinda a thing in certain nerd circles. However I bet the real reason is that they are hoping the trademarks end up in more co-operative hands some day, and all builders can market their boats as Lasers.

 

[JimC]

The war is won , stop posting if you want the thread to die

The reason I posted an update before we all started wibbling on is that the war isn't really won. The fighting continues.

 

[Xeon]

At this time , no one is taking ILCA to court over the decisions they have made regarding LP and the new deal with the new builders.
ILCA are being made , sold and raced . LP Laser are not . War won.
I might be wrong , I often am , but I cannot see how any of the existing law cases can change this situation.
But am all ears to any information that can put me straight.

 

[tillerman]

Recursive acronyms are kinda, well fashionable is the wrong word, kinda a thing in certain nerd circles. However I bet the real reason is that they are hoping the trademarks end up in more co-operative hands some day, and all builders can market their boats as Lasers.

Recursive acronyms! That's what this is all about. You can go around in circles for ever trying to make sense of them. If you like this kind of thing then check out Gödel, Escher,Bach and I am a Strange Loop by Douglas Hofstadter.

Can't help thinking that everything would make a lot more sense if ILCA had chosen a different word beginning with L as the name for the new boat.

 

[IPLore]

I think I understand what you are saying.

I have reached an age where I barely understand what I have written, 1 hour after writing.

Let's take an example. I have a 1995 Laser in the garage. I am not currently a member of ILCA. If I were to join ILCA then would my Laser (with a 1995 ISAF plaque) immediately become an "ILCA class sailboat?" Or is it still a Laser until I take part in an ILCA event? If I then do some recreational sailing the week after the event, does my boat revert to being a Laser or is it still an ILCA class sailboat?

I think that your Laser like dinghy with an ISAF plaque is both an ILCA dinghy and a Laser dinghy and can be advertised and sold as such.....but sitting in your garage is not an "activity" governed by the ILCA.
If you ( a non ILCA member) took your Laser like dinghy out for a recreational sail on a pond in Dorset, Ohio, I think it should be obvious that is not an activity that ILCA can control.

However what happens when your good friend Chris Hampe jumps on the boat with you, and Chris is a fully paid up member of ILCA? Chris has agreed with ILCA that ILCA has authority over all activities of the ILCA class sailboat in Dorset Ohio. It applies to any ILCA sailboat that he is a crew on, not just boats that he owns. Clearly absurd right? Yes it is, and I dont think you need worry about it.

So why does the Class Association even go there?

Imagine instead, a resort in Florida buys 6 ILCA dinghies from PSA. The resort joins the ILCA so that its boat can be used for local events and to show support for the class. They even advertise in the ILCA magazine. The sailing program is a wild success. They have a white sandy beach, a consistent cross breeze, blue crystal clear water, no high rise condominiums, no kite boarding and welcoming staff. The boats are available 7 days a week and there is racing organized by the hotel staff on Wednesday and Saturday. It quickly becomes a destination for sailors and their families looking for a winter vacation which includes some informal sailing without being a 24/7 sailing vacation. The chef is good , there are plenty of other activities, and as previously remarked...the beach is stunning.
So successful, that the resort decides to double down and purchase 18 more laser-like dinghies. Hearing of the opportunity, Laser Performance, secures the order by offering essentially the same boat for 20% less than PSA. The resort owners don't read Sailing Anarchy, and are blissfully unaware of the Laser shit fight. The boats look identical and both suppliers own a legitimate registered trade mark. The resort begin the new season with 24 Laser like dinghies, the same beach and the same chef. They hire a sailing director to run the beach sailing program.
The sailing director realizes there is a terrific market to include some coaching courses and racing in the Laser like dinghies and gets ready to advertise for a week of coaching culminating in a pro-am event......and then hits a snag. Is his activity subject to the governance of ILCA?

Another example. I get tired of RS Aero sailing and buy a brand new ILCA from PSA because you can have them made in custom colors. I don't join the class immediately so what is the boat?

It entirely depends on the color of the boat.

 

[IPLore]

The new ILCA constitution generally refers to the boat as an ILCA Class Sailboat. So perhaps the international class association should be called the International ILCA Class Sailboat Class Association or IILCACSCA for short.

As a retired attorney, I Love Cases About the class association you describe above.....so one might say in short that ILCAIILCACSCA.

 

[IPLore]

Who actually has the right to Kirby's previously unpaid royalties?
I got confused about where things ended up with Global Sailing after Kirby sold the right to GS for a lump sum but then it got murky when LP refused to pay royalties to GS. I know there was talk of Kirby buying back his rights. Did Kirby end up as the sole owner of the rights or does Global sailing still own part or all of them?

And as a separate question, I assume someone is collecting designer royalties from all the current ILCA builders. But who?

There are no designer royalties on the Laser or ILCA.

We previously beat that horse to death. Any designer copyright expired decades ago. There are only contracts.

 

[IPLore]

In this thread , over a hundred pages earlier, a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away Obi Wan @Gouvernail (OWG) wrote some wise words.

He described how players get together to play a game, and the game is fun, so more players want to play on this aquatic playground with this laser-like toy. So the players agree on some rules among themselves. The point being that the players defined the rules not the toy manufacturer.

When LP argued that the toys did not have to have a stamp of approval from a CT corporation called BKI , when PSA agreed that the trademark was unnecessary for the game, and when both of them terminated contracts and sued each other......they turned OWG's pragmatic reality into a legal reality.

Who won the Laser dispute? ILCA was the winner, despite barely spending a dime in legal fees after being dismissed from the case.

The players control their own game. Which is how it should be. OWG can go back to meditating in his library. When players control the game, the question shifts to how the players govern themselves. Which makes the constitution interesting

 

[IPLore]

Here is the text of the Laser/ILCA Constitution change.

http://www.laserinternational.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/ILCA-Constitution-Final-revision-for-voting-WITH-MARKUP.pdf

The European CA gets an extra seat in Council while it continues to dominate the membership numerically. A sop to the criticism from TLC about europeans being under represented in proportion to membership numbers.

The Council has given themselves power to add whoever they choose as an additional voting representatives to Council from whichever region they choose. In the right hands, it is not a problem. In the wrong hands....if they don't like what Europe is saying, they can pick additional voting members from somewhere else


Voting members of the World Council shall be the President, the Chairperson of each Regional Executive Committee...

Regions
(1) The World Council may, as and when it deems it convenient for the administration of the affairs of the association .... constitute such area as a Region.

The World Council can divide North America into Western USA, Eastern USA and Canada into regions. It can constitute Texas as a region. It can constitute Martha's Vineyard as a region... as long as it deems such a measure as convenient for the administration of the affairs of the Class.
It gets better. Guess who chooses who would represent the newly created "convenient" regions.

The World Council, upon establishing a Region, shall appoint a Regional Executive Committee comprised of a Regional Chairperson,......

 

[Gouvernail]

The HUGE difference from forty years ago:

Then: Laser brand boats were built and the players association limited participation to equipment that was purchased from Laser brand suppliers.
It didn’t matter if the equipment was identical in every way. If the equipment was not purchased from the Laser brand supply chain, the players association would not let the equipment participate in the Laser players association’s games


Now: The group was high calls itself ILCA is setting up franchises to build and sell boats called ILCA. The ILCA group has recently started the process of creating a Constitution describing itself.
Equipment made by Laser builders is no longer automatically welcome.

Practicality:
Those who are in the business if building Lasers can still sell Lasers to anyone who wants a Laser. The group that calls itself ILCA won’t let people use new equipment unless a package of fees has been paid to them. That package includes similar fees to those formerly collected by the Laser Builders and the designer.
Sailors around the world are still figuring out how to best play racing games on the Kirby designed toys.
In events organized by the group which identifies as ILCA, only certain sailboats are welcome.
In events organized by others, it seems the players and hosts are welcoming anyone who brings equipment that closely matches the Kirby design.

Back to ignoring

 

[tillerman]

There are no designer royalties on the Laser or ILCA.

We previously beat that horse to death. Any designer copyright expired decades ago. There are only contracts.

Sorry. Maybe royalties is the wrong word. But once upon a time, many moons ago, Bruce Kirby was receiving a payment from the builders on every Laser sold. (Because of contracts presumably.) Then Bruce somehow sold that income stream to Global Sailing in exchange for a few million dollars (as I recall.)
So my question really was who is getting those payments now?
Bruce's heir(s)?
Global Sailing?
Nobody? If so, why?
And who ended up with the millions that Bruce made on the deal? Did GS get their money back?

 

[Gouvernail]

If we can get all the money Rastegar paid recently, and If we each toss in another $20 we can probably afford breakfast at Waffle House

 

[Bored Stiff]

Is IILCACA’s proposed re-wording of the constitution an admission that the last few years activities have been unconstitutional? Might this lead to more legal proceedings? I can imagine a scenario where Rastegar argues that his boats have been banned unfairly from competing despite having the recognised starburst logo, whilst ILCA-boats were allowed to compete but didn’t have that logo.