Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

[Xeon]

The HUGE difference from forty years ago:

Then: Laser brand boats were built and the players association limited participation to equipment that was purchased from Laser brand suppliers.
It didn’t matter if the equipment was identical in every way. If the equipment was not purchased from the Laser brand supply chain, the players association would not let the equipment participate in the Laser players association’s games


Now: The group was high calls itself ILCA is setting up franchises to build and sell boats called ILCA. The ILCA group has recently started the process of creating a Constitution describing itself.
Equipment made by Laser builders is no longer automatically welcome.

Practicality:
Those who are in the business if building Lasers can still sell Lasers to anyone who wants a Laser. The group that calls itself ILCA won’t let people use new equipment unless a package of fees has been paid to them. That package includes similar fees to those formerly collected by the Laser Builders and the designer.
Sailors around the world are still figuring out how to best play racing games on the Kirby designed toys.
In events organized by the group which identifies as ILCA, only certain sailboats are welcome.
In events organized by others, it seems the players and hosts are welcoming anyone who brings equipment that closely matches the Kirby design.

Back to ignoring

Can you point me to a LP organised Laser event….. ANYWHERE in the world .
Certainly no one in the uk as far as I know has run one . All the open meetings I’ve seen reported in this country have been ILCA events. Yes I know clubs could opens allowing new Lasers but I have yet to see one .
Sorry to be boring and sound like Wess, but you all are arguing over nothing of any importance
The war is won and people are now just clearing the battle field .

 

[Gouvernail]

Why do you point at LP but at none of the builders of Laser knock offs.
Which ILCA builders organize regattas??

Something tells me I have personally organized more regattas than the sum total of the ILCA builders.

But
I don’t remember any regattas organized by any Laser builder after the first few years of the seventies.

Why is Lp’s lack of regatta organization a relevant subject??

And… what is this “war” of which you speak??

I thought the people who identify as ILCA considered themselves to be the Red Cross of Kirby boat racing.

The Warrior from whom the folks who identify as ILCA withdrew support has died.
His adversary is still filing appeals vs a court he claims has no real jurisdiction.

But mostly

I am ignoring this thread

 

[JimC]

Gouv ignores this thread like bears ignore honey...

 

[RobbieB]

In this thread , over a hundred pages earlier, a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away Obi Wan @Gouvernail (OWG) wrote some wise words.

He described how players get together to play a game, and the game is fun, so more players want to play on this aquatic playground with this laser-like toy. So the players agree on some rules among themselves. The point being that the players defined the rules not the toy manufacturer.

When LP argued that the toys did not have to have a stamp of approval from a CT corporation called BKI , when PSA agreed that the trademark was unnecessary for the game, and when both of them terminated contracts and sued each other......they turned OWG's pragmatic reality into a legal reality.

Who won the Laser dispute? ILCA was the winner, despite barely spending a dime in legal fees after being dismissed from the case.

The players control their own game. Which is how it should be. OWG can go back to meditating in his library. When players control the game, the question shifts to how the players govern themselves. Which makes the constitution interesting

ILCA is a class organization run by ILCA sailors and not builders, (that have been contracted by the ILCA to build boats). So, are the sailors/players not running the game now?

 

[Dex Sawash]

SA should have an "ignore thread" function. I wouldn't use it on this one though.

 

[Bill5]

This is a great thread. Controversy, intrigue, bad-mouthing - it’s got it all!

 

[IPLore]

Sorry. Maybe royalties is the wrong word. But once upon a time, many moons ago, Bruce Kirby was receiving a payment from the builders on every Laser sold. (Because of contracts presumably.)

A company called BKI received a contractual payment on each Laser sold.

Then Bruce somehow sold that income stream to Global Sailing in exchange for a few million dollars (as I recall.)

He sold the company called BKI to Global Sailing for $2 million.
Global Sailing way overpaid for the income stream, but they were not paying for the income stream. They were buying the right to veto manufacturers so that they could sell Lasers outside of Australia and New Zealand....notably they wanted a negotiating chip to sell Lasers in Asia

So my question really was who is getting those payments now? Nobody as far as I can tell
Bruce's heir(s)?
Global Sailing?
Nobody? If so, why? The contracts were terminated.
And who ended up with the millions that Bruce made on the deal? Bruce and his heirs Did GS get their money back? The short answer is no. In the court filings, it initially appeared the Bruce had repurchased the rights but discovery showed otherwise. Caveat Emptor. GS bought and paid for a company. It is theirs. It is worthless now but they bought it, and they are partially responsible for the decline in value..

Dont feel too sorry for PSA, they eventually achieved their objective , which was to be able to sell Lasers elsewhere in the world outside of Australia and NZ.

My precise recollection is diminished by the passage of time.
Ironically, Bruce was moments away from selling BKI to LP. Then Rasty screwed it up and Bruce got a better bid.

 

[IPLore]

ILCA is a class organization run by ILCA sailors and not builders, (that have been contracted by the ILCA to build boats). So, are the sailors/players not running the game now?

Correct. It was almost inevitable like water flowing downhill. But the law suits and terminated contracts, created a void where ILCA could just step in with minimal legal expenses.

 

[RobbieB]

Correct. It was almost inevitable like water flowing downhill. But the law suits and terminated contracts, created a void where ILCA could just step in with minimal legal expenses.

So this is an instance where the lawyers didn't get ALL the money?

 

[IPLore]

So this is an instance where the lawyers didn't get ALL the money?

The lawyers got lots of money from LP and PSA but not much from ILCA. You will recall that ILCA filed a motion for summary dismissal which was granted.

 

[Gouvernail]

And I am not paying attention at all

 

[JimC]

. They were buying the right to veto manufacturers so that they could sell Lasers outside of Australia and New Zealand....notably they wanted a negotiating chip to sell Lasers in Asia

But according to everything I've read the contracts didn't give them that right. When I read what was made public the mesh of overlapping contracts gave each builder and trademark holder full control and protection in their area. The only way things could change were if a builder voluntarily chose to stop building the class, in which case a bunch of termination clauses came into play, or if someone chose to break the terms of a contract, in which case they could be terminated.

That's what's so weird about Laser Performance. As far as I can see they first unilaterally broke the contract with BKI/Global Sailing, and then unilaterally broke the contract with ILCA. From where I'm standing it was as if they stepped out of a tank in full view of the enemy and painted a target on their torso - twice.

 

[Xeon]

Totally agree, I never understood LP/Rasty position and what he was trying to gain out of it.
Did he just think the class would just roll over and give him total control over manufacture, like he has with the Sunfish?
Seems to me LP would be making more money for less effort if they had come back to the class and agreed to the new set up. But what do I know

 

[IPLore]

But according to everything I've read the contracts didn't give them that right.

That is correct. The power vested in BKI to veto LP as a builder did not reside in a contract, it resided in the class rules. When GS bought BKI, the class rules required that boats were built by a builder that had both (1) A contract with the trademark owner for the region and (2) A contract with BKI.

So if you go back all the way to the beginning of the shit fight, it all started when PSA acquired BKI. LP were already a bit out of sorts because they had been close to buying BKI when PSA outbid them.

GS then thought they could approve builders and applied some pressure to LP to be a bit more negotiable about opening up some markets to PSA, especially as LP was struggling to service all the markets they purportedly had the trademark for. LP said take a walk

. GS cancelled some contracts and said LP cant build Lasers because they dont have a BKI contract .

The Class said "sorry we are not going to let one manufacturere tell us who is the builder in other parts of the world" They changed the rules and the BKI contract became unnecessary. Oooops GS.

Then LP said....."you need the trademark and we own the trademark everywhere except Japan, Australia and nZ". So the class changed the rules and the trademark became unnecessary. Oooops LP

Hundreds of thousands of dollars of legal fees later and the builders have basically lost all their IP because they underestimated the class association

When I read what was made public the mesh of overlapping contracts gave each builder and trademark holder full control and protection in their area. The only way things could change were if a builder voluntarily chose to stop building the class, in which case a bunch of termination clauses came into play, or if someone chose to break the terms of a contract, in which case they could be terminated.

That's what's so weird about Laser Performance. As far as I can see they first unilaterally broke the contract with BKI/Global Sailing, and then unilaterally broke the contract with ILCA. From where I'm standing it was as if they stepped out of a tank in full view of the enemy and painted a target on their torso - twice.

 

[Xeon]

I have to say Gouv , has totally reinvigorated this thread by ignoring it

 

[Gouvernail]

Nothing to see here on Joe Van Rossem’s birthday

 

[tillerman]

Nothing to see here on Joe Van Rossem’s birthday

Something to listen to here on Joe Van Rossem's birthday

 

[Wavedancer II]

(Joe) Blows them out of the water!

 

[Gouvernail]

I am not ignoring the Joe posts

 

[Gouvernail]

This is a truly great weekend for ignoring this thread!!!