Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

Xeon

Super Anarchist
1,014
587
England
Gouv. Take a breath and have a quality malt or simply take your meds.
We all know this , but the bottom line is I.L.CA as a class and as a boat is in a healthier position now than it’s been for the last decade . And I say this as a exlaser owner that wish’s the class would simply die as there are simply loads of better/nicer singlehanded boats to sail in 2022. ( D-zero,Aero and Uk Supernova to name three ) .
 

Gouvernail

Lottsa people don’t know I’m famous
38,010
5,545
Austin Texas
Gouv. Take a breath and have a quality malt or simply take your meds.
We all know this , but the bottom line is I.L.CA as a class and as a boat is in a healthier position now than it’s been for the last decade . And I say this as a exlaser owner that wish’s the class would simply die as there are simply loads of better/nicer singlehanded boats to sail in 2022. ( D-zero,Aero and Uk Supernova to name three ) .
Sheesh… I would have died years ago if I hadn’t been breathing since that was posted here nine years ago.
The class has been doing pretty much exactly as that note suggested nine years ago.
I spent a lot of time bitching about tte fact tgey entirely failed to use the proper processes to achieve the same goals as mine but I never suggested anything but doing pretty much as has been going on.

>>>Dump the controlled name of the toy becsuse those who control the name have no interest in making the game prosper…. Get on with organizing s as nd promoting the game.

There is no “it” for me to give a rest.

We once again have a game controlled by folks who care about the game.

It even appears we are VERY close to having my “well funded North American builder who supplies good toys, provides warranty service, stocks spare parts, and actively promotes the game “

The truly unfortunate part is the guy who has led the charge for well over a decade is going to be 70 by the time the class and builder can fully re-establish the entire system. And see the fruits of his efforts.

I hope by that time we have a solid group of young fanatic sailor/ organizers who will have taken over and blasted the game into the future.

Back to ignoring the thread
 

shebeen

Super Anarchist
Nine years ago… 9 YEARS!!

In the meantime I have harped about HOW our Class guys have stumbled toward the goals I described NINE YEARS AGO…
But… I firmly believe things are moving the right way!!

From 9 years ago

Gouvernail said:
RANT ALERT!!!!

While I was typing this sorta got out of hand....


Something tells me you have never developed a new product, written a song, or authored a book.

in fact...just guessing here...But my bet is you don't bring a sharable roll of duct tape to regattas.

No offense intended. I just want to know if any or all of the impressions your post gave me are true:

1. You do not own a self proprietor business.

2. You do not own a multi person boat upon which your friends get to ride at your expense

3. You do not have a multi deck trailer you share with your friends for use getting to singlehanded sailboat event.

4. You do not have a toolbox of spare parts from which friends may mooch at a regatta so they can finish the event and refill your stash next week

5. You do not bring a cooler full of beverages to any regular gatherings like fleet sailing night or even football game watch parties.

6. You rarely or never host parties

7. You are not and never have been a fleet captain, district secretary, or a club officer of any type at any time ever.

8. You never host sailboat regattas

If I am wrong about my impression. I will be surprised and if I am entirely incorrect, I will have to revaluate a lot of things I tend to think about people based upon my early impressions...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Or not...because I really don't give a hoot...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Here is my impression about what Kirby is doing and why:

He and a bunch of friends figured out how to build a pretty decent sailing toy and wanted to tell EVERYBODY to come out and play with them. Lots of others have tried to do that in the history of this planet. Nobody has ever managed to get so many to come out to play on one kind of boat so many times and in such large groups for so many years.

NOBODY!!!

I sure tried. I worked at a company that built a boat called a Copperhead and another called a Sidewinder at the same time Kirby and his buddies were introducing the Laser. Our two boats were sailed in the same 1969 One of a kind Regatta...(The Americas Teacup) where the Laser made its initial big very positive impression. The company with which I was affiliated had resources that dwarfed those available to Kirby and his buddies ( Well actually they could have brought their design to us and had us build it and our fiberglass con struction experts would have likely teamed with his rigging and sailmaker experts and the laser would have been a hell of a lot better and more durable and less expensive and started off with a much bigger push than it did) But his pals and Kirby didn't. They went at it on tehrir own and took three years to get the first production boat out.

Anyway, our not as good as a Kirby boats hit the market faster and sooner and harder and more thoroughly than the laser and by the time Kirby got his first boat in production , we already had a thousand each of ours. We had dealers all over North America and we had everything...except our rig sucked and our class management was just not very good at all...No pozazz. Nothing at all like the laser..

There were lots of other guys building their version of the monopoly company perfect boat for all people to have and sail. Force 5ive, Banshee, US 1, dagger, Super Sunfish, ..there were hundreds of them ..

You haven't heard of tehm because Kirby and his gang didn't set up those companies.

Laser happened. It really happened. Holy shit!! It happened!!! By the end of the seventies there were already almost 100,000 Lasers and there were 150 and 200 boat single regattas. There were world championships with extremely limited entry and many layers of qualification just to get in. Kirby and his guys developed a whole new game.

(So did Hobie Alter but this is about Kirby and monohulls not the other even more successful Hobie 16 explosioin)

THE SECRET!!!

The boat may be a little better than some of the rest, but the real thing was the promotion and organization. Lasers had money set aside from EVERY boat to PROMOTE. The builders spent lots of extra money promoting the racing. The worlds were held in a fleet of brand new supplied boats. NObody else even thought of that.

The mutual back scratching between the racing game, the class association and the builder was the brilliant business plan of Kirby and his buddies. The builders built facilitles able to create enough boats for the 1977, 1978 boom and when sales dropped back to an otherwise unheard of annual 10,000 boats, the company experienced its first huge financial faiure. As sales slipped on that which was not so much the new greatest thing, the builders stumbled and stumbled and, in North America, continued to stumble well into the 1990s.

Each new North American builder and Kirby held to the basic business model of promoting and contributing to the racing game while building the exact same boat for that game and the Laser game continued on while almost ALL other one design dinghy fleets pretty much folded up shop and stopped having builders of new boats.

Kirby held on to the model, "Support the game. Support the one design concept. Support the game and we will continue to hold on as the only real worldwide fleet of racing sailboats.

When Vanguard took over as builder ( And a couple years later I set up a class office in Austin) Laser sailing actually started to boom again. For the first time in twenty five years, we had fanatics in charge at both the builder and class office who were determined to take over the entire world of sailing AGAIN and the sales of lasers started to increase annually. The association membership rose dramatically, the participation in regattas started to pick up again....and then...

Shortly after I stopped running the class office, ( and we won't get into why as this rant is already testing my finger endurance and your attention span) Vanguard sold to the group headed by rastegar and things went into a tailspin.

rastegar and his fellow dumbasses dodn't even keep Chip Johns around to entirely dissect his brain and figure out how the hell he ran the ONLY growing and prosperous dinghy business in North America.

Thye knew EVERYTHING they understood they needed to know.

The Kirby plan where the builder beats the bushes for sailors and funds the class so it can beat the bushes some more was set aside.

rastegar and his guys didn't think that Kirby's (the only successful business model in the last 40 years) was worth trying.

So they didn't

They didn't even try.

Nobody is doing all that stuff builders and associations and dealers need to do to make the special "Kirby and his buddies" plan work.

The singlehanded sailing game is NOT booming. In fact, the machine is running on its fumes and there are no spare parts and the place where Vanguard was building the boats their managers and owners so loved is quiet..

But..

rastegar

and his gang

own the name laser

and the logo.

.

.

SO FUCKING WHAT!!!!!

I want to race sailboats in huge fleets. There are already 200,000 of Kirby's design floating around out there and the problem is we do not have a builder who is fanatically building and supporting the game we love to play.

Kirby's idea is to make up a new name, build his same old sorta OK sailing toy and keep the party rocking.

I think of his move as a Get the fuck outta my way!!! I am gonna go play anyway.

Others are trying to point has move as a money grab. What the fuck is Kirby gonna do with a few million more bucks?? Do you suppose he is gonna buy a mansion and invite playboy Bunnies over to party??

The answer is obviously "Hell No!!" Too damned young....He is way younger than hefner.

The point is, we need to find ourselves a builder who will support the game and all support that builder while that builder supports a class management team while that class management team supports the game while the fleets support the sailors while the sailors support the fleets while we tell everybody where we are playing next and refuse to accept no for an answer when we invite them out to play...

and the dealers damn certain better stock spare parts and sails and new boats and even a few nice used boats and the builder damn certain better build top notch quality hulls and decks and warranty their product and support the class and the game and take all their profits and enjoy the hell out of their weekends out playing IN THEIR SAILBOATS!!!

I do not EVER want to see another person on the Laser Class payroll or involved in management at the Builder who does not love to sail the toys or at least manage the game by serving on RC on weekends.

If they don't passion for the game, it will show in their work. Get those people who don't like to play with us the hell out of the way so we can set up the party!!!

We can build a new game.

We already have lots of great available toys and anybody with a shop and anybody with a thorough knowledge of dinghy sailboat mass production, who agrees to abide by the Kirby contracts, can crank out new ones. (Melges Boat works, MFG Union City PA, MFG Gainesville Texas, and maybe others)

Seems like Kirby is trying to revive the patient not grab a pile of money...

You might decide to help...

Or you can all "take sides" with the guys who happen to own the trademark on the current name.

Note: I already took my turn and lumps as a class officer and class employee I really do not want to ever go to work for somebody else again. The only way I would get financially involved in the promotional and organizational end of this would be with a guaranteed contract with some form of 3rd party insured separation payment GUARANTEED regardless of the genesis of the eventual shitfight where I get my ass tossed out.
this post aged well
 

Xeon

Super Anarchist
1,014
587
England
Sorry Gouv . I only glanced though your rant so got completely the wrong end of the stick .
I withdraw all my comments other than the one about pouring yourself a nice malt whiskey. 😀
 
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tillerman

Super Anarchist
5,460
2,696
Rhode Island
We all know this , but the bottom line is I.L.CA as a class and as a boat is in a healthier position now than it’s been for the last decade . And I say this as a exlaser owner that wish’s the class would simply die as there are simply loads of better/nicer singlehanded boats to sail in 2022. ( D-zero,Aero and Uk Supernova to name three ) .
 

tillerman

Super Anarchist
5,460
2,696
Rhode Island
We all know this , but the bottom line is I.L.CA as a class and as a boat is in a healthier position now than it’s been for the last decade . And I say this as a exlaser owner that wish’s the class would simply die as there are simply loads of better/nicer singlehanded boats to sail in 2022. ( D-zero,Aero and Uk Supernova to name three ) .
So, ILCA is healthy with fleets everywhere and a gazillion regattas all over the world? And the newcomers may be nice boats but they will never have the numbers that ILCA has?

So does this mean that the best option is to sail an ILCA and a nice boat? (Asking for a friend.)
 

Xeon

Super Anarchist
1,014
587
England
So, ILCA is healthy with fleets everywhere and a gazillion regattas all over the world? And the newcomers may be nice boats but they will never have the numbers that ILCA has?

So does this mean that the best option is to sail an ILCA and a nice boat? (Asking for a friend.)
It depends.
If you are like most usa sailors and think the only real sailing is class sailing , the answer is NO. Just have a ILCA.
If you are like the majority of uk sailors that are happy py sailing week in week out, the answer is still NO. Just sail what you want . 😂😂
 

Foredeck Shuffle

More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
What is the purpose of limiting where a part can be purchased from? If the part is legal why can’t it be stocked by any shop?

Can someone point me to where in the ILCA Class rules it says that some or all parts can only be purchased through an ILCA approved dealer?

...opens trenchcoat...

Hey kid! Come here! You want some ILCA parts? I got some. Hot! They even have ILCA stickers and imprints. Never know the difference. If you want a receipt from a chandlery I can sell you that as well. My brother has a shop up in Detroit, website looks like the real thing but is spelled 1LCA. Those old ILCA measurer schmucks will never be able to tell the difference!
 

deadrock

Member
67
42
UK
Tillerman,

It is in the ILCA Rules:
Rule 18.3: 'Traveller and Boom mounted mainsheet blocks may be replaced with the “Builder Supplied” blocks shown in the photo.'

The blocks shown are the three Harken-designed blocks (boom mainsheet block, boom traveller block, and traveller block) which are permitted as substitution or replacement for the original blocks.

The designation 'Builder-Supplied' means that the part has to be purchased from an ILCA builder or an ILCA licensed dealer. This is partly to ensure that ILCA sailors know they are buying a genuine part designed to take the required stresses. It's a bit like having your car serviced at a manufacturer's licensed dealer; you have a right to expect that they will use genuine brake-pads with the correct performance.

FS: It's not just the 'ILCA measurer shmucks' who'll be fooled; you'll look pretty foolish when your knock-off blocks come apart at the gybe mark!
 

tillerman

Super Anarchist
5,460
2,696
Rhode Island
Tillerman,

It is in the ILCA Rules:
Rule 18.3: 'Traveller and Boom mounted mainsheet blocks may be replaced with the “Builder Supplied” blocks shown in the photo.'

The blocks shown are the three Harken-designed blocks (boom mainsheet block, boom traveller block, and traveller block) which are permitted as substitution or replacement for the original blocks.

The designation 'Builder-Supplied' means that the part has to be purchased from an ILCA builder or an ILCA licensed dealer. This is partly to ensure that ILCA sailors know they are buying a genuine part designed to take the required stresses. It's a bit like having your car serviced at a manufacturer's licensed dealer; you have a right to expect that they will use genuine brake-pads with the correct performance.

FS: It's not just the 'ILCA measurer shmucks' who'll be fooled; you'll look pretty foolish when your knock-off blocks come apart at the gybe mark!
Thanks. The Fundamental Rule does indeed say, "The boat shall be raced in accordance with these Rules, with only the hull, equipment, fittings, spars, sail and battens manufactured by a World Sailing and International Laser Class Association (ILCA) approved builder in strict adherence to the design specification (known as the Construction Manual) which is registered with World Sailing.

But where do the rules say that the dealer must also be licensed by ILCA?
 

Bill5

Right now
2,826
2,365
Western Canada

Foredeck Shuffle

More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
It has been a few hundred posts since the actual fees ILCA get from gear has been posted. Only real fitting they actually collect on is the vang - $7.
https://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2020/08/25/overview-of-ilca-finances-part-2/

Let's revive this dead horse conversation. @Wess will be happy to jump back in!
I remember that and that ILCA doesn't receive the money does not change the fact that inferior parts often sell for considerably more than higher quality equivalent parts. There is no logical reason a block must be stamped with ILCA to be class legal other than to boost the price which the manufacturer must be trousering. That you can put Harken carbo air blocks to make up the outhaul and cunningham puts a sharp focus on how ridiculous and over priced the three ILCA mandated mainsheet blocks are. Until these recent blocks the mainsheet blocks were just plastic garbage with no bearings but cost more than the hotest new Harken equivalent.

I was in that thread and I posted that I have attended many Master's events handing out parts to fix bailers, spar end caps and the upper section sleave fitting, that were worn or broke and that not a single bailer part was Laser/ILCA and no one cared. At Jensen beach once I temporarily handed over a joined Harken blocks for a broken traveler set of blocks, the cheap plastic pair that come standard with a new boat. The chandler van didn't have anything and neither did anyone around else. A bunch of Laser sailors looked at each other and said they had no problems, just come race. Though the sailor acknowledged that doing well that day might invite an inspection, he decided to go racing rather than not after having traveled hundreds of miles to an event.

If a part does nothing to change the performance of the boat, it shouldn't be class restricted. Just the size and purpose of the part should be restricted so that someone cannot change the way the boat performs. Useless rules do not exist in a vacuum, someone in the ILCA decided someone should profit off those blocks and it is easy to see that they do. Might not be the ILCA, just the manufacturer.
 

tillerman

Super Anarchist
5,460
2,696
Rhode Island
I remember that and that ILCA doesn't receive the money does not change the fact that inferior parts often sell for considerably more than higher quality equivalent parts. There is no logical reason a block must be stamped with ILCA to be class legal other than to boost the price which the manufacturer must be trousering. That you can put Harken carbo air blocks to make up the outhaul and cunningham puts a sharp focus on how ridiculous and over priced the three ILCA mandated mainsheet blocks are. Until these recent blocks the mainsheet blocks were just plastic garbage with no bearings but cost more than the hotest new Harken equivalent.

I was in that thread and I posted that I have attended many Master's events handing out parts to fix bailers, spar end caps and the upper section sleave fitting, that were worn or broke and that not a single bailer part was Laser/ILCA and no one cared. At Jensen beach once I temporarily handed over a joined Harken blocks for a broken traveler set of blocks, the cheap plastic pair that come standard with a new boat. The chandler van didn't have anything and neither did anyone around else. A bunch of Laser sailors looked at each other and said they had no problems, just come race. Though the sailor acknowledged that doing well that day might invite an inspection, he decided to go racing rather than not after having traveled hundreds of miles to an event.

If a part does nothing to change the performance of the boat, it shouldn't be class restricted. Just the size and purpose of the part should be restricted so that someone cannot change the way the boat performs. Useless rules do not exist in a vacuum, someone in the ILCA decided someone should profit off those blocks and it is easy to see that they do. Might not be the ILCA, just the manufacturer.
The Laser was an amazing boat when it was first launched in 1971 and it revolutionized the sport of single-handed sailing globally. The boats from the 70s and 80s may not have all the fancy new twiddly bits that you can buy now but they were REAL Lasers and we learned how to deal with their quirks and sail them well. The boat is meant to be a strict one design to make it fair to everyone, so I see no reason why anyone should waste their time and energy campaigning for fancier blocks here and more purchases there not to mention expensive carbon spars. Let's all get back to sailing REAL Lasers.
 




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