Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

[tillerman]

It is surely anti-competitive to license the retailers of approved kit. If the Allen block is class legal you should be able to get it from any shop.

Exactly. Is there anything in the Class Rules that says you can't buy an Allen block from any dealer?

 

[JimC]

This is a conversation that's been had many times before. What should not be denied is that the Laser system worked very effectively to build the biggest class in the world. The builder's monopolies enabled them to take out more from the class than other builders, and in return they put far more back into the class than other builders. We can argue endlessly about how and why this went wrong and have done on many threads, but shouldn't forget that it did work for many years.

 

[MR.CLEAN]

Exactly. Is there anything in the Class Rules that says you can't buy an Allen block from any dealer?

You can buy anything you want from anyone. If you want a class legal boat, you'll follow the rules. If you don't like it, vote for a change. Pretty simple.

 

[Bored Stiff]

Not sure how it meets the definition of non-discriminatory in FRAND.

 

[Bored Stiff]

This is a conversation that's been had many times before. What should not be denied is that the Laser system worked very effectively to build the biggest class in the world. The builder's monopolies enabled them to take out more from the class than other builders, and in return they put far more back into the class than other builders. We can argue endlessly about how and why this went wrong and have done on many threads, but shouldn't forget that it did work for many years.

Yes, that’s true. But then ILCA changed the rules of the game. It almost looks like the money grabbing builder has been replaced by a money grabbing CA.

 

[Bored Stiff]

You can buy anything you want from anyone. If you want a class legal boat, you'll follow the rules. If you don't like it, vote for a change. Pretty simple.

How will this be policed? And how will this work with second hand boats/parts? What evidence can you have of the original dealer? The only way I can see this working is by prohibiting non-approved dealers from stocking the item.

 

[Xeon]

The Laser was an amazing boat when it was first launched in 1971 and it revolutionized the sport of single-handed sailing globally. The boats from the 70s and 80s may not have all the fancy new twiddly bits that you can buy now but they were REAL Lasers and we learned how to deal with their quirks and sail them well. The boat is meant to be a strict one design to make it fair to everyone, so I see no reason why anyone should waste their time and energy campaigning for fancier blocks here and more purchases there not to mention expensive carbon spars. Let's all get back to sailing REAL Lasers.

Utter tosh . Totally agree the laser was a game changer when it was launched.BUT IN 2022 what the laser needs now is more up dating not less . IF this had happened in the last 10 years, you would not be sailing an Aero and I would not be sailing a Zero .
Those ‘ quirks’ need to be got rid of off not sailed around or managed 😤😢🙁🙁

 

[Bill5]

There is no reference in the rules to authorized dealers. So let’s shelve that one. A standard boat comes with inferior blocks etc with an option for an upgrade. So you are all fitted out. But - you could always buy a plastic Holt Allen block to replace the exact one that came with the boat. I am missing what this discussion is about.

 

[Bill5]

Yes, that’s true. But then ILCA changed the rules of the game. It almost looks like the money grabbing builder has been replaced by a money grabbing CA.

FFS. Look at the dollar amounts per boat and ILCAs financials. Nobody is getting rich in the equation.

 

[MR.CLEAN]

Not sure how it meets the definition of non-discriminatory in FRAND.

maybe you should spend some time learning until you are more sure

 

[tillerman]

Utter tosh . Totally agree the laser was a game changer when it was launched.BUT IN 2022 what the laser needs now is more up dating not less . IF this had happened in the last 10 years, you would not be sailing an Aero and I would not be sailing a Zero .
Those ‘ quirks’ need to be got rid of off not sailed around or managed 😤😢🙁🙁

Total nonsense. The Zero and Aero are fundamentally different boats from the Laser. You will never be able to make a Laser the same as either of them by allowing such minor updates as better traveler blocks or more purchases in the vang.

 

[tillerman]

FFS. Look at the dollar amounts per boat and ILCAs financials. Nobody is getting rich in the equation.

The lawyers have been getting richer.

 

[tillerman]

There is no reference in the rules to authorized dealers. So let’s shelve that one.

Thank you for confirming my suspicion.

 

[Gouvernail]

Sometimes you guys are hilarious. For the last few years people have been showing up at Laser regattas eith and ILCA insignia on the sails. Nobody has been paying attention to the rules. What makes you think anyone can suddenly start??

 

[Bored Stiff]

maybe you should spend some time learning until you are more sure

Or you could teach me. I understand you are a lawyer and the rules are in your native tongue. And whilst you are at it, perhaps you could explain how to enforce only allowing racers to use blocks purchased from authorised dealers if you allow unauthorised dealers to stock it.

 

[Bored Stiff]

There is no reference in the rules to authorized dealers. So let’s shelve that one. A standard boat comes with inferior blocks etc with an option for an upgrade. So you are all fitted out. But - you could always buy a plastic Holt Allen block to replace the exact one that came with the boat. I am missing what this discussion is about.

Allen have developed a new class-legal block and have posted on this site that their new block can only be purchased via authorised dealers “due to ILCA class rules”. I’m simply asking why my local chandlery can’t stock it if it’s an approved item. Or, if they do stock it, how do I know they are authorised and thus it is a class-legal purchase?

 

[Wess]

Filthy
Rich
Assholes
Not
DoingAnythingOtherThanScrewingGrassRootsSailorsAndGettingRicher

Brought to you by the fucking self-obsessed idiots running WS and ILCA.

 

[Bill5]

Thank you for confirming my suspicion.

Filthy
Rich
Assholes
Not
DoingAnythingOtherThanScrewingGrassRootsSailorsAndGettingRicher

Brought to you by the fucking self-obsessed idiots running WS and ILCA.

Can you explain your position a bit more clearly, please?

 

[Bill5]

Allen have developed a new class-legal block and have posted on this site that their new block can only be purchased via authorised dealers “due to ILCA class rules”. I’m simply asking why my local chandlery can’t stock it if it’s an approved item. Or, if they do stock it, how do I know they are authorised and thus it - is a class-legal purchase?

I just read that post/ad. No idea - certainly isn’t in the rules. They refer to “Stockists” and list all the builders. @WestCoast - can you shine any light?
(Anybody outside the UK use the word “stockist”?)

 

[tillerman]

Filthy
Rich
Assholes
Not
DoingAnythingOtherThanScrewingGrassRootsSailorsAndGettingRicher

Brought to you by the fucking self-obsessed idiots running WS and ILCA.

I just read that post/ad. No idea - certainly isn’t in the rules. They refer to “Stockists” and list all the builders. @WestCoast - can you shine any light?
(Anybody outside the UK use the word “stockist”?)

Looks like there is also a Harken version of the ILCA traveler block which appears to be widely available at all the usual online dealers. In a brief search I could only find the super duper Allen ILCA blocks on the Ovington website.