Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

[Xeon]

Total nonsense. The Zero and Aero are fundamentally different boats from the Laser. You will never be able to make a Laser the same as either of them by allowing such minor updates as better traveler blocks or more purchases in the vang.

Totally disagree . Both the Aero and the Zero are just slightly better Lasers with slightly less vices , nothing more.
In fact if the laser had sorted out it’s mainsheet ( at a small cost) and adopted, as a option, the Australian carbon fibre larger rigs ( at a large cost ) that were trialled a few years ago there would not have been the Aero and the Zero at all. As there would have been NO gap in the market to sell them into .

 

[nroose]

Laser hull is 56.7kg (130lb). Aero hull is 33kg (73lb). Seems like a pretty significant difference that would not be made up with a mainsheet block or even a carbon rig. But it might have been enough to stall the market for a new dinghy for even longer.

 

[tillerman]

Totally disagree . Both the Aero and the Zero are just slightly better Lasers with slightly less vices , nothing more.
In fact if the laser had sorted out it’s mainsheet ( at a small cost) and adopted, as a option, the Australian carbon fibre larger rigs ( at a large cost ) that were trialled a few years ago there would not have been the Aero and the Zero at all. As there would have been NO gap in the market to sell them into .

I can only really speak to my own motivations for buying an Aero. When the Aero was launched in 2014, I was a passionate Laser sailor. I could not imagine ever abandoning the Laser. And I was not looking for a new boat because of the way the mainsheet was rigged on the Laser or because it didn't have carbon spars. Here is a comment I wrote on my blog in March 2014 after seeing some of the early publicity for the Aero and posting an Aero video on the blog ...

I don't think I'll ever "jump ship" in the sense of abandoning the Laser for another boat. I will keep sailing my Laser until they pry the tiller extension from my cold, dead hand. But the option is to keep sailing my Laser and enjoying the value of an established class with lots of fleets and an active regatta circuit, while perhaps also being in on the start of a new, small initially but growing class in a different boat. Imagine the fun of sailing the first Aero regatta in North America, the first US Nationals maybe…

I was 65 years old and wanted to have the experience of being an early adopter of a new class before I was too old. And, looking back 8 years later, I am glad I took the plunge. I did get to sail in the first RS Aero North Americans and the first US Nationals. I did get to sail an RS Aero championship on Lake Garda. And I did get the special experience of "being in on the start of a new, small initially but growing class."

Mission accomplished. What's next?

 

[Bill5]

I dunno, there are plenty of boats better than the ILCA/Laser. Hell, the Banshee and Force 5 looked like better boats when the Laser came out. I sailed them both a couple times and they were more comfortable, had travellers, etc.
The boat is one thing, the massive racing program makes up for a lot of faults.

 

[nroose]

Actually, it seemed to me that the conflicts/litigation probably was worse for the class than the standards/restrictions/boat.

 

[Xeon]

I dunno, there are plenty of boats better than the ILCA/Laser. Hell, the Banshee and Force 5 looked like better boats when the Laser came out. I sailed them both a couple times and they were more comfortable, had travellers, etc.
The boat is one thing, the massive racing program makes up for a lot of faults.

Totally true and that’s not going to change any time soon.

 

[Xeon]

Actually, it seemed to me that the conflicts/litigation probably was worse for the class than the standards/restrictions/boat.

Also totally true which is why I hopped the class would make a mess of it . Unfortunately, for me that wish the class would just die , the class committee did a terrific job steering the class though the LP mess and the class is now stronger than it’s been in decades. 😀

 

[Xeon]

I can only really speak to my own motivations for buying an Aero. When the Aero was launched in 2014, I was a passionate Laser sailor. I could not imagine ever abandoning the Laser. And I was not looking for a new boat because of the way the mainsheet was rigged on the Laser or because it didn't have carbon spars. Here is a comment I wrote on my blog in March 2014 after seeing some of the early publicity for the Aero and posting an Aero video on the blog ...

I don't think I'll ever "jump ship" in the sense of abandoning the Laser for another boat. I will keep sailing my Laser until they pry the tiller extension from my cold, dead hand. But the option is to keep sailing my Laser and enjoying the value of an established class with lots of fleets and an active regatta circuit, while perhaps also being in on the start of a new, small initially but growing class in a different boat. Imagine the fun of sailing the first Aero regatta in North America, the first US Nationals maybe…

I was 65 years old and wanted to have the experience of being an early adopter of a new class before I was too old. And, looking back 8 years later, I am glad I took the plunge. I did get to sail in the first RS Aero North Americans and the first US Nationals. I did get to sail an RS Aero championship on Lake Garda. And I did get the special experience of "being in on the start of a new, small initially but growing class."

Mission accomplished. What's next?

I am not disagreeing with the reasons why you decided to join the Aero class. What I am saying is if the Laser class had developed at a steady and regular rate in the 80s/90s and 00s there would not have been a Aero class for you to join .

 

[tillerman]

I am not disagreeing with the reasons why you decided to join the Aero class. What I am saying is if the Laser class had developed at a steady and regular rate in the 80s/90s and 00s there would not have been a Aero class for you to join .

But it didn't develop (apart from minor mods to rigging etc.) It was set up as a strict one design and the uber-conservative culture of the class prevented any significant change to hull, foils etc. How could you have had a Laser with a hull half the weight of the original Laser and still sail old and new hulls in the same one design class?

But a lot of us like vintage cars and vintage wines and vintage songs. Why should we not sail vintage boats?

 

[Bill5]

But a lot of us like vintage cars and vintage wines and vintage songs. Why should we not sail vintage boats?

ILCA Laser Masters - vintage boats and vintage sailors.

 

[tillerman]

ILCA Laser Masters - vintage boats and vintage sailors.

And some of them are "legends."

 

[Gouvernail]

They got off three races at the No coasts.

 

[Xeon]

But it didn't develop (apart from minor mods to rigging etc.) It was set up as a strict one design and the uber-conservative culture of the class prevented any significant change to hull, foils etc. How could you have had a Laser with a hull half the weight of the original Laser and still sail old and new hulls in the same one design class?

But a lot of us like vintage cars and vintage wines and vintage songs. Why should we not sail vintage boats?

No reason at all thousands of people do this in local class all over the uk . The difference is these are all local classes with a small number of boats each.
The Laser/ILCA is probably the only boat with world wide coverage. So let’s look at other world wide sports , do golfer play with hickory clubs, do pole vaulters still use bamboo poles, do football players use 1950s heavy leather balls, the list can go on and on. Sporting equipment changes end of and that’s all a Laser/ILCA is .
The argument that the spec of it has to be set in stone for every and every is just facile. Often given by people that think the Radial should not exist either.

And for the record if the class had allowed the the new rigs to be used , I would still be sailing a ILCA .
But looking back everything has turned out for the best , the ILCA class is stronger than it’s been in decades and I am very happy sailing the Zero. 😀

 

[Dex Sawash]

Surely, at some level, all the approved bits pass through an approved source and we're once again picking the fly shit out of the pepper here in the blowtorch thread.

If one is worried about counterfeit parts, just get one of those pens that you check money with.

Sorted.

 

[RobbieB]

ILCA Laser Masters - vintage boats and vintage sailors.

I rounded the GM corner this year and am racing a 21 year old hull and blades, (everything else gets "refreshed" from time to time). It's hard to upgrade it when I'm still placing well in regattas and winning races....

 

[Gouvernail]

Actually?? Golf balls are tested and may only be built to go a certain distance. We could make balls that go further but the game is played with specific balls
NASCAR limits horsepower and does in a number of ways

Many Sports have rules limiting the effectiveness of the equipment.

The ILCA class is only a few months old. It only recently created a constitution.
Folks with adequate funding are involved in building and distribution.
Things are moving the right way

 

[Bill5]

Good one, Gouv.
Xeon - aside from materials (carbon, Kevlar and the like) what one-design classes have made radical changes, eg changing the dimensions of the sail?

 

[Bored Stiff]

Lots and lots of one design classes have changed the sail (plan) shape. Most have kept the same mast though so it is a small change that can be made when your sail needs replacing. The Byte and 49er spring to mind as classes with wholesale changes of rig, but there aren’t too many other examples.

 

[JimC]

Yep. Larger jibs/genoas are a common mod on one design classes. Larger kites too. One thing I have observed is that there have been windy decades and quieter decades, and in the quieter decades classes tended to increase sail area.

 

[Curious2]

No reason at all thousands of people do this in local class all over the uk . The difference is these are all local classes with a small number of boats each.
The Laser/ILCA is probably the only boat with world wide coverage. So let’s look at other world wide sports , do golfer play with hickory clubs, do pole vaulters still use bamboo poles, do football players use 1950s heavy leather balls, the list can go on and on. Sporting equipment changes end of and that’s all a Laser/ILCA is .
The argument that the spec of it has to be set in stone for every and every is just facile. Often given by people that think the Radial should not exist either.

And for the record if the class had allowed the the new rigs to be used , I would still be sailing a ILCA .
But looking back everything has turned out for the best , the ILCA class is stronger than it’s been in decades and I am very happy sailing the Zero. 😀

Your comparisons are facile, to use your term. Hockey sticks, even for the elite, cost as much as a Laser tiller and extension - and have changed about as much over the same period. Vaulting poles cost less than a mast, and Laser masts have changed just as much as vaulting poles over the same period. Footballs are very cheap.

So the items you use for comparison are vastly cheaper than a Laser and don't appear to have changed any more than comparable Laser bits.

If the class had changed to the new rigs, I think it would be dead around my neck of the woods. How on earth could anyone p*ss all over the kids who cannot afford to upgrade rigs, and effectively throw them out of the entire sport? Who on earth would want to win in a typical club fleet with about one or two new rigs and everyone else on old ones?

The other boats with worldwide coverage are the 420 and Optimist, neither of which has changed much. The major class that has changed most of all (Mistral windsurfer) went from about 65,000 craft to zero. Seems to be a lesson there.