Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

[Wess]

Baltic,

Believe we are and yes I have. And no they are not obsolete for 70-90% of the sailors that are out there. IMO you are advocating a system that benefits the extreme top few and the expense of the many. If you don't like the Opti, try the 420, if you don't like them both try the Snipe and the list would go on and on (for the average sailor). Maybe this is why the average sailor has left the sport and left our class association (are you a member BTW?).

I have nothing against paying the class. I am opposed to paying Kirby and the builders (a huge mark-up ala sails) unless a judge says we have to.

Bottom line though I am done with the thread. Will follow Dog on this one. Loved this sport and got in as a cruiser. Sailed all over God's creation with the wife and then with our young kids too. The pics line the walls and bring a smile to my face to this day. Racing is fun too but the further you go the more its a business complete with robber-barons suing volunteers, class leaders beiing attacked by folks that most likey are not even in the class, and a cost to play that compared to cruising is just insane. You guys are what my kids call fun suckers. And then there are all the tragedies. Kids in harbors, weekend warriers in lakes and coastal waters, professionals in the VOR and AC.

Gouv, maybe the class is not not slowly dying because you left, but because you all forgot about Joe Average Sailor and they all left as you guys continue to align with professional money grabbers and make the sport more expensive, less accessible, and less fun (especially for anyone in a leadership role).

Think its time to uncover the Hobie (another class on the list BTW).

Anyway, I am outta here. Sort of stopped caring middle of the afternoon yesterday.

I'd deleted that post and another after I heard what happened in SF Bay a few hours ago. Don't want to discuss it today.

 

[BalticBandit]

As Kant pointed out "belief" is irrational unless you can back it up with VALID reasoning and independently verifiable facts. Neither of which you have presented. If a new CM came out, it would change the value of ALL Lasers. Whether 70%-90% could continue to sail in local regattaes does not change that and you have yet to address how people would feel if their boat was suddenly 30% less valuable because some knockoff bottom-feeding asset stripper like Rastegar simply wanted to make more profit.

As for the 420 or the Snipe - both are crewed boats. So they are a very different class (setting aside that the 420 sucks in terms of build quality)

Now as to "paying Kirby a Huge Markup"... what "huge markup" is this that you are talking about? Kirby's license is no more than 3% of the cost of the boat. That's $18 on the sail and $120 on the hull. Hardly "huge" and hardly the source of what you are whinging about.

As for "robber barons" - well the bottom-feeding asset strippers that you are siding with are way more "robber baron" since not only are they the ones charging you $600 for a sail and $5k for a hull that they are now doing a shitty job of building, but they are the ones who are POCKETING the $140 in licensing fees that they stopped paying to BK.

You really seem rather innumerate

 

[BalticBandit]

Except Gouv you know that's a pipe dream. Because in any interview where the person being interviewed is competent, you won't get anything that will give you insight into their full negotiating position nor their legal strategy lest the show their hand to the other side. Basically until this gets settled, you won't have any of the interested parties giving interviews unless they are chosing to back off and back either Kirby or Rastegar.

And this is a classic case of Rastegar engaging in bottom-feeding, asset stripping turnaround. So its hardly a "persian" thing as some idiots have posited. its just nasty nasty arbitrage.

 

[BalticBandit]

Gouv - guys like you make guys like Wess seem less important. You rock you hoary old bastard.

 

[S291sailor]

Last night we had a newbie on a Sunfish. He was way behind his fleet sitting too far back sail trimmed wrong looking unhappy... So I dropped out of the laser fleet for a while and followed the newbie and chatted with him so he could join the fun rather than follow the fleet and be frustrated..

I guess I was helping the elite sailors again

Shit!! I am so bad!!!

Note: it is amazing how easy it is to teach somebody when you can say stuff like, "see where the guy on front is sitting? Do that! And look where the guy in last is sitting, don't do that"

My conscripted student never managed to beat anybody else last night but he did manage to get close enough to finish a couple races. .

His attitude was preserved though and I believe he is already hooked on the game.

Newbies are the best thing for any fleet.

+ 1,000,000,000,000

 

[resalsail]

The 2% that BK Inc collects is based on the wholesale price of each new boat built, not retail. A rough guess on wholesale price for a 6K package would be 4K - that's $80. There is no additional BK fee for spares (ie additional sails/spars, other parts)

Everyone whinging about the sail price - Again, that is set by the builders, not the sailmakers (And hopefully none of you really think the builders would buy the sails from anyone but the lowest cost supplier, which means they are buying the sails for some number less than what the replica sails sell for retail ) Anyone that races in the class knows the sails are a cash cow for the builder and dealers, it's why the members have been demanding a sail that last longer (because the members know the builders are never going to lower the price) and IMHO exactly why the builders have been dragging their feet approving the new sail design (because for them to realize the same year end $ales totals, they are going to have to raise the price of new boats)

Now as to "paying Kirby a Huge Markup"... what "huge markup" is this that you are talking about? Kirby's license is no more than 3% of the cost of the boat. That's $18 on the sail and $120 on the hull. Hardly "huge" and hardly the source of what you are whinging about.

As for "robber barons" - well the bottom-feeding asset strippers that you are siding with are way more "robber baron" since not only are they the ones charging you $600 for a sail and $5k for a hull that they are now doing a shitty job of building, but they are the ones who are POCKETING the $140 in licensing fees that they stopped paying to BK.

You really seem rather innumerate

 

[Otterbox]

From what has been established Kirby was getting 2% on the boat and zero on the sails, so Wess continuing the line about huge mark ups is just deliberate misinformation.

Actually I think one of the major issues facing the Laser class is the building of boats in the wrong places. In 1970 building boats in Japan, the UK, North America and Australia was fine but these days they should be being built in China, in one well run factory. I bet if that happened we`d see the same full event and class support around the world AND a 20% reduction in cost and a uniformity of quality, rather than having boats built in Australia obviously superior to those built here in UK.

Before every starts going off about British built or Australian being better than Chinese built, if the production processes are set up exactly the same and close supervision say from the PSA guys,, there will be greater uniformity in resins and more labour put into each boat if they are built in China and we´d all see cheaper boats and at this point I don´t care if they are called Lasers or Torches.

 

[resalsail]

I may be reading the contracts incorrectly, but I read it as the wholesale price that the 2% is based on includes everything needed to go sailing, not just the bare hull. So BK gets a little (very little) slice of the original sail, spars/blades etc.

From what has been established Kirby was getting 2% on the boat and zero on the sails, so Wess continuing the line about huge mark ups is just deliberate misinformation.

Actually I think one of the major issues facing the Laser class is the building of boats in the wrong places. In 1970 building boats in Japan, the UK, North America and Australia was fine but these days they should be being built in China, in one well run factory. I bet if that happened we`d see the same full event and class support around the world AND a 20% reduction in cost and a uniformity of quality, rather than having boats built in Australia obviously superior to those built here in UK.

Before every starts going off about British built or Australian being better than Chinese built, if the production processes are set up exactly the same and close supervision say from the PSA guys,, there will be greater uniformity in resins and more labour put into each boat if they are built in China and we´d all see cheaper boats and at this point I don´t care if they are called Lasers or Torches.

I agree that building in one location should in theory ensure a more uniform product, as long as controls/specs are in place to ensure that the "ingredients" don't get "watered" down for inferior substitutes (ie a purchasing manager trying to save money on a "similar" but cheaper resin or a supplier not telling the builder about a change in material composition. Not that that ever happens )

 

[Surf-n-Turf]

AND a 20% reduction in cost and a uniformity of quality, rather than having boats built in Australia obviously superior to those built here in UK.

Before every starts going off about British built or Australian being better than Chinese built, if the production processes are set up exactly the same and close supervision say from the PSA guys,, there will be greater uniformity in resins and more labour put into each boat if they are built in China and we´d all see cheaper boats and at this point I don´t care if they are called Lasers or Torches.

As some one who works in the electronic components industry, your assumption of lower cost because of "Chinese factories" is totally wrong. The truth of the matter, China is actually on the high end of the cost scale for Asian manufactures, but all of them have ridiculously high failure rates. Your GPS or iPod craps out? Return it and get another one. For our Military customers (who grants us double the margins) and some commercial customers, those bits get manufactured in US or EU because the cost of failure is higher than the cost of an annoyed teenager. That cost of re-work/replacement means no lower price per boat.

Boat building is a labor intensive venture and I doubt that there is a business plan to justify a single builder. My boat is 149xxx and I beat a guy with a 210xxx hull last week along with other guys who have newer hulls than mine. Your solution would produce consistency alright... consistently bad boat for the same price.

 

[Otterbox]

If one factory, with certified materials built to the Kirby LCM I dont believe there

would be a quality issue. Over the last four decades a lot has changed in manufacturing. McConaghy built boats out of China are considered to be of very very good quality for instance. Dont imagine for a minute that there are not currently problems with resin grade differences. Do you think PSJ building say 100 boats a year has the same resin as Banbury building 1000?

 

[mrpelicano]

AND a 20% reduction in cost and a uniformity of quality, rather than having boats built in Australia obviously superior to those built here in UK.

Before every starts going off about British built or Australian being better than Chinese built, if the production processes are set up exactly the same and close supervision say from the PSA guys,, there will be greater uniformity in resins and more labour put into each boat if they are built in China and we´d all see cheaper boats and at this point I don´t care if they are called Lasers or Torches.

As some one who works in the electronic components industry, your assumption of lower cost because of "Chinese factories" is totally wrong. The truth of the matter, China is actually on the high end of the cost scale for Asian manufactures, but all of them have ridiculously high failure rates. Your GPS or iPod craps out? Return it and get another one. For our Military customers (who grants us double the margins) and some commercial customers, those bits get manufactured in US or EU because the cost of failure is higher than the cost of an annoyed teenager. That cost of re-work/replacement means no lower price per boat.

Boat building is a labor intensive venture and I doubt that there is a business plan to justify a single builder. My boat is 149xxx and I beat a guy with a 210xxx hull last week along with other guys who have newer hulls than mine. Your solution would produce consistency alright... consistently bad boat for the same price.

Comparing boat-building to manufacturing consumer electronics (my business as well) is apples-to-oranges. For one thing, the fault-tolerances for electronics - consumer or MILSPEC - are much, much tighter than for building something like a Laser. And since the number of electronic devices (and their components) produced is exponentially greater, you're going to get a higher failure rate than you will for something like a 14-foot dinghy.

More relevant - and here is where I do have issues - is the comparative labor costs between China and the U.S., Australia, Japan, and EMEA countries. While China is no longer the cheapest place to manufacture, in terms of labor costs - for that you would need to start looking at Vietnam and Indonesia - it remains substantially cheaper than the primary markets for Lasers, and also possesses the infrastructure and relevant skilled labor that cheaper AP labor markets currently lack.

My own view is that Lasers could be mass produced in China to the necessary level of quality, and they would be less expensive FOB in the target market. Quality control can be insured by appointing a suitable QA/QC manager onsite at the facility in China (exactly what McConaghy does). Provided the dealer network is strong, for sales and support, the single source business model would probably work well. And you could expect some incentives from the Chinese government to establish a business that employs skilled workers and pays them a decent (by Chinese standards) wage.

2 cents.

 

[ojfd]

My own view is that Lasers could be mass produced in China to the necessary level of quality, and they would be less expensive FOB in the target market.

I don't remember where I got this from ..I wouldn't call it cheap at US$4280 ex-works.

Besides, manufacturing abroad in less developed country brings inflation to that country and creates unemployment in your own. :-(

Laser Standard(One).pdf

 

[Otterbox]

Resins vary country to country, even if they are supposed to be identical, so single factory production will ensure uniformity.

When I was a kid, I had a fishing reel Made in USA. It was not made in America but in a town in Japan that changed its name to USA, part of their plan to overcome the stigma of Japanese made product.

The law was changed to prevent that but we know Japanese production continued to improve.

I am sure that Chinese production strictly to the LCM would give us good boats and bitching about 2% and ignoring 20% potential saving seems pretty daft to me.

 

[Otterbox]

Look at what just popped up

http://www.marinebusiness-world.com/Kirby-files-to-cancel-Laser-Trademark-and-Sunburst-Logo-for-Boats/109354

Another new development in the widening legal dispute between Bruce Kirby, the designer of the world´s best known sailing boat, the Laser dinghy and one of the Laser builders LaserPerformance (LPE) the builder and supplier of Lasers into UK, Europe and North America, because of non-payment of design royalties.

Bruce Kirby Inc. today filed a petition to cancel US trademark registrations directed to both the word LASER and the Sunburst logo for boats. According to US Trademark Office records, these US registrations are owned by Karaya (Jersey) Limited based in St. Helier, Jersey, Channel Islands. Grounds for the petitions are abandonment and failure to exercise control over the goods made and sold under the marks.

 

[Otterbox]

Yes, its interesting, we are a long way away from the US sailing scene here in the UK but has anyone there ever heard of Karaya (Jersy) or Velum active with the Laser brands before this court case.

If what Kirby´s attorney alleges is true, (and Pam´s research in the Improper Course blog was already pointing in that direction) , then it would seem pretty open and shut that LPE wont be selling Lasers any more in the USA and where does that leave ISAF and the ILCA?

Or will we next hear they are going to be Issuing non Kirby Laser plaques to Laser non trademark owners too. After all only a few small class rules changes again!!

Lets face it, both of those groups have the same perfect legal defence, they are happy to break the law if it means that boat supply continues.. That is OK is it not?

Surely Jon Napier, the ISAF in-house legal counsel will be able to confirm that ISAF is way way above the law.

BTW Does anyone know if the same trademark usage and protection applies in Europe and the UK??

 

[Bruno]

when i read recommendations (usually from non-builders, i.e. consultants, marketeers, IT guys, financiers, and the like) to just relocate production to china and save money whilst maintaining quality, I have to laugh. easy b-school cliched formulaic answers, its just numbers, never mind the other factors.

To me, that is not just quitting, it si selling out. If that makes me a nationalistic, racialistic asshole, ok. I just watched a Chinese crew nail sheer on top of an old corrugated aluminum roof, then add comp. And the ceilings were down. So say what you wil but most of the builders I know would like to have never sent a mold to China. I have lived there and studied the language, culture, and history. I like modern western societies (including Japan), thank you, and I think that we can build better and better value products than in China when we are not stabbed in the back by short sighted financial opportunism.

Tell Germany that manufacturing is a dead end. And if you say well thsoe are Germens not Americans, who do you think was the largest white ethnic group in the US? And it isnt a white thing, it is a societal managerial thing, its called leadership and personal accountibilty, and it starts with you and me. The UK used to lead the world in manufacturing and innovation. When a society is vitiated and lazy then they sit around cashing their coupons and engage in financial engineering, spending more time offshoring their brands than building something. Sure, thats arbitrage but it used to be that hedging was a secondary corporate activity.

Rant over but give the "offshore our problems" meme a rest and just fix it right, it only takes some balls.

 

[qusnewt]

BTW Does anyone know if the same trademark usage and protection applies in Europe and the UK??

This is from the OHIM ... seems similar to US law, but we should ask Wess since he knows the law better than any one else on this thread.

Maintaining your mark

CTMs shall be put to genuine use in the Community within a period of five years following registration (Article 15 CTMR). Genuine use may be found when the mark has been used in only one part of the Community, such as in a single Member State or in a part thereof. Any person (legal or natural) can protect their registered CTM against revocation on the grounds of lack of use – provided it is put to genuine use in the Community after the initial five-year post-registration grace period or if there are proper reasons for such non-use.

Thus, the best defence against revocation action is pre-emptive: non-generic, non-misleading, genuine and continuous use of the Community trade mark at all times. Use it or lose it!

 

[IPLore]

When somebody finds out if this is the same family, it will or will not be appropriate to bring it up here

Or put another way. BK sold his rights to the Spencer family in New Zealand as part of his "estate planning". Does anyone know if this is the family related to John Spencer, wealthiest man in New Zealand and owner of mega yacht and various offshore entities?

Global Sailing Ltd includes a Christopher Spencer on the board. For sure, the same Chistopher Spencer was also on the board of a NZ company "Equitable Mortgages" which went belly up with $178 million of depositors. The board of Equity Mortgages had several directors that are also on the board of Global sailing ltd.

 

[IPLore]

It turns out this is a different family from John Spencer. The owners of Global sailing are the children of Peter Spencer.

"A prominent meat industry figure, Spencer was known for some time as the New Zealand’s farmer with the most extensive pastoral holdings – the largest being the 4856ha Erewhon Station near Taihape, which he bought for $6 million in 1992.

His farming interests expanded into the corporate arena when his investment company took a significant interest in meat company Affco, which is now diversifying itself away from a dependence on lamb and beef processing to dairy.

Spencer came from a wealthy family, most notable for establishing the Caxton Printing Works, founded in Auckland in 1890 by Peter’s grandfather Albert.

In 1989 Caxton was sold to Carter Holt Harvey for $300 million. Peter Spencer developed a wide range of business interests over a long period including car assembly (Motor Holdings), financial services (Equitable Group), clothing (Alliance Textiles [NZ], meat (Affco Holdings), communications (Cellular-Vision NZ), property and farming."

 

[Bruce Hudson]

It turns out this is a different family from John Spencer. The owners of Global sailing are the children of Peter Spencer.

"A prominent meat industry figure, Spencer was known for some time as the New Zealand’s farmer with the most extensive pastoral holdings – the largest being the 4856ha Erewhon Station near Taihape, which he bought for $6 million in 1992.

His farming interests expanded into the corporate arena when his investment company took a significant interest in meat company Affco, which is now diversifying itself away from a dependence on lamb and beef processing to dairy.

Spencer came from a wealthy family, most notable for establishing the Caxton Printing Works, founded in Auckland in 1890 by Peter’s grandfather Albert.

In 1989 Caxton was sold to Carter Holt Harvey for $300 million. Peter Spencer developed a wide range of business interests over a long period including car assembly (Motor Holdings), financial services (Equitable Group), clothing (Alliance Textiles [NZ], meat (Affco Holdings), communications (Cellular-Vision NZ), property and farming."

IPLore has it right. The Spencer family are known here in NZ as a wealthy family who made their money from Caxton. They are sometimes referred to as 'toilet paper magnates' - because that one of the more famous products that Caxton made. That was more to do with the family that Peter was part of - as I understand it, Peter had "a small shareholding" of Caxton. http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/nz-rich-lister-dies-us-34391 though as IPLore said had a number of business interests.

Having said that, the Spencers have been involved in Lasers for years and years in NZ and Australia, and from what I can tell, have done a pretty good job of it. My feeling is that they supported Lasers in the earlier days, not so much to make money, but rather because it was a good thing to do. My feeling is that from a stability and 'good people' point of view, the choice for Global Sailing to take over Bruce Kirby Inc was a good one. From a political point of view, (with hindsight) we can all say that maybe the choice was not so good.

Here's the official records for Global Sailing

http://www.business.govt.nz/companies/app/ui/pages/companies/2143989

There have been accounts here (and I've heard it elsewhere as well) relating to the drop in quality of boats supplied by LP since 2007 when it got new ownership. It's a fair summation that LP in it's current state is not so good for Laser sailing. It came to a head when they stopped paying royalties to GS / Kirby.

The problem got even whole worse when our representatives, the ISAF effectively took sides with LP.

I believe that what's at stake is the way we run our sport. My feeling is that best choice for now is to run it based on good will - using the system that has served us well for many years. What that will mean is to identify and replace 'bad apples' and IF NECESSARY - sail the Kirby sailboat named the Torch. Maybe we can figure out an even better way of running our sport - but as a collective - not through dishonouring contracts and using lawyers.

I have sent an email to my ISAF representative (Jan Dawson) asking that the ISAF reverse their action.