Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

[qusnewt]

Yes, it is fun and games to point out stickers and Photoshop jobs. However, I ( really ought to ) interpret the pictures to communicate the message "the newly appointed builders are now fully capable of producing hulls".

Clearly that is not the case.

I see the ILCA has taught you to read between the lines. Well done Gouv. I read the same thing.

 

[qusnewt]

Yes, it is fun and games to point out stickers and Photoshop jobs. However, I ( really ought to ) interpret the pictures to communicate the message "the newly appointed builders are now fully capable of producing hulls".

Clearly that is not the case.

I see the ILCA has taught you to read between the lines. Well done Gouv. I read the same thing.

Crap, where did the underlined disappear to?

 

[JimC]

Dear all,

Precision in language is everything when dealing with lawyerised topics.

Does the page say first Kirby Torch or first *brand new built as* Kirby Torch?

Can a Laser become a Kirby Torch?

How does a Laser become a Kirby Torch?

Still, I reckon all of this is manouvering. Once Rastregar's initial reply is in both sets of lawyers will study everything and we'll see if we get a settlement or whether this will drag on for years. I fear its more about principle than money, at least on Kirby's part, so that probably means drag on for years rather than early settlement.

 

[Oz Scout Sailor]

My mistake. All the Lasers in our boatshed are old enough that the stickering is significantly different so I made an assumption. In fact I don't think our Lasers have 2 stickers only an single IYRU sticker which says Laser built by PSA and may or may not be silvery.

My point about mistakes made on a common production line with common components still applies.

As do my comments regarding the CM.

 

[Otterbox]

Regardless of their cries of, everything everything we´ve done is to ensure ongoing supply of boats, ISAf AND llCA have it seems stopped Laser production cold.

Is there any disagreement that its time ISAF and ILCA sat down with Bruce Kirby and his Incs, whoever they maybe to try and get this whole thing back on track?

 

[Cheap Jibes]

interesting, apparently new molds and dies have been procured, as well as sail patterns.

Where was that boat made? One of the new builders in Canada or Europe? Or is it just a PSA hull with a Torch logo stuck on it?

Definitely PSA's factory on the east coast of Australia, for what it's worth..

I'm told the Scheidt sail has been on display there for some time and the black mainsheet and spliced yellow ropes on the vang have recently been added to PSA's website. So clearly a Laser with Torch sticker applied.

Seems like a strange and unnecessarily provocative action from PSA.

 

[TRUTHPUPPETHATESUALL]

ojfd, I'm not sure where you are coming from, but I understand where the people behind the Torch (and it's not just Kirby) are. I believe that these are not new molds and that Bruno is mistaken.

To me, it's clear that if you take the existing Laser, make some cosmetic changes, it makes a Torch as described. So even if it was a PSA manufactured boat (and nowhere is it claimed to be anything other than what it is), then it still is within the Torch concept.

I have a request for you ojfd, since you said "And Kirby's propaganda... again..". Can you please outline exactly what you say is Kirby's propaganda? I believe that you are insinuating that Kirby is spreading mistruths (if I have it wrong, please let me know and I will apologise). From where I sit, and I have reviewed a heck of a lot of documentation over the last couple of years, while I can find evidence of the ILCA and Kirby talking past eachother, nowhere can I find evidence of Kirby spreading mistruths. I can find a little evidence of the ILCA spreading mistruths, however there is evidence also supports that this may not have been deliberate (see earlier post on the legal advice).

So ojfd, if you were able to lay out exactly what mistruths Kirby is spreading in detail, ideally quoting sources, point by point outlining what the Kirby claim is and why it's misleading, I will take up the challenge and use my own sources to publicly agree or disagree with whether Kirby has been using propaganda. Currently, my feeling is that he isn't - but convince me otherwise!

- Bruce.

The propaganda is strong with this one.

Much propaganda has he.

 

[ojfd]

Let me ask another relevant question - what is the MRRP of the Kirby Torch that everyone raves about? Any idea? Anyone have ever heard any announcments? $2499 perhaps?

 

[jwlbrace]

Seems like a strange and unnecessarily provocative action from PSA.

hardly- one of the criticisms of Kirby is that there hasn't been a physical sale of a Kirby Torch yet, so anyone wanting one... even on protest for local sailing... can't buy one.

This picture shows how easy that criticism can (and maybe soon, will) be addressed.

 

[BalticBandit]

As I recollect The Torch Class will grandfather any class legal ILCA hulls as Torches. To me that photo says "look how easy it is to change to the Torch Class: all it takes is a logo change - nothing else changes"

Is that "propoganda"? To the extent that it leaves out that a class organizational infrastructure needs to be built - perhaps. But I suspect Kirby is likely assuming that he will be able to just absorb the existing district and regional ILCA orgs if the court rulings boot out Rastegar

As for reading between the lines, I think the ISAF is letting that information leak to try and make the parties settle RSN. ISAF has plenty of other performance single handers it can switch to - sure none with as big a class as the Laser, but the women could quickly go back to the Europe, and if you leave the men in Finns then you can add back in any of the classes that have recently been slighted.

ILCA is the one playing with fire. By backing Rastegar against both Kirby and the other builders, they essentially keep the fight going. If they sided with PSA and Kirby, and simply stopped issuing plaques to Rastegar, LPE would have to sue ILCA to get plaques. but in the mean time ILCA would be dropped by Kirby from the suit, and PSA and others would be able to start manufacturing again.

 

[knuckles]

Is that "propoganda"? To the extent that it leaves out that a class organizational infrastructure needs to be built - perhaps. But I suspect Kirby is likely assuming that he will be able to just absorb the existing district and regional ILCA orgs if the court rulings boot out Rastegar

I thought that the "LPU" was going to absorb the existing districts and regional Laser orgs.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

ojfd, I'm not sure where you are coming from, but I understand where the people behind the Torch (and it's not just Kirby) are. I believe that these are not new molds and that Bruno is mistaken.

To me, it's clear that if you take the existing Laser, make some cosmetic changes, it makes a Torch as described. So even if it was a PSA manufactured boat (and nowhere is it claimed to be anything other than what it is), then it still is within the Torch concept.

I have a request for you ojfd, since you said "And Kirby's propaganda... again..". Can you please outline exactly what you say is Kirby's propaganda? I believe that you are insinuating that Kirby is spreading mistruths (if I have it wrong, please let me know and I will apologise). From where I sit, and I have reviewed a heck of a lot of documentation over the last couple of years, while I can find evidence of the ILCA and Kirby talking past eachother, nowhere can I find evidence of Kirby spreading mistruths. I can find a little evidence of the ILCA spreading mistruths, however there is evidence also supports that this may not have been deliberate (see earlier post on the legal advice).

So ojfd, if you were able to lay out exactly what mistruths Kirby is spreading in detail, ideally quoting sources, point by point outlining what the Kirby claim is and why it's misleading, I will take up the challenge and use my own sources to publicly agree or disagree with whether Kirby has been using propaganda. Currently, my feeling is that he isn't - but convince me otherwise!

- Bruce.

The propaganda is strong with this one.
Much propaganda has he.

(OK, I'll rise to the challenge). Welcome TRUTHPUPPETTHATHATESUALL. Do you sail Lasers? How long? Where?

It would seem we have a common interest - the truth.

If you have an issue with what I have written, please be specific. By the way, I'm human and I make mistakes - and I'd rather have a mistake exposed than march blindly onwards with some misconception.

And while we are speaking of hollow challenges, and recently, we are talking about the photos of the 'Torch', whether or not they are actually the Torch. The point is that the Torch can be produced now, because it uses the same production line as the Laser. So blank hulls coming off the mold could be Lasers or they could be the Torch. So in that context the production line is ready - and it would appear the PSA is ready to produce the Torch. I'm not sure how many molds there are in the world, or what their location or status is, however I am sure that at least some of them are ready to be used to produce the Torch right now.

Perhaps Jeff and Heini may have thought the that prospect of what we know as the Laser being rebranded was a hollow threat? We now know that this is not true. This is what Tracy said back in 2011:

I would argue that who is right or wrong in the dispute is irrelevant to the larger problem that there is a dispute and it has the potential to very soon adversely impact Laser sailing. The crux of the matter is that, whether we like it or not, one builder owns the trademark to call the boat we sail a Laser and affix a Starburst logo to its sail, while another party, independent of ILCA, owns IP rights to the boat and the current ILCA rules (of which WE the sailors control) require an agreement between the two. In today's world, if the two parties cannot come to agreement then, under the current rules, we are in a situation where a builder cannot build a boat but can prevent any other potential builder from building a boat called a Laser and selling it in their trademarked territory. I would argue that who is right or wrong in the dispute is irrelevant to the larger problem that there is a dispute and it has the potential to very soon adversely impact Laser sailing. The crux of the matter is that, whether we like it or not, one builder owns the trademark to call the boat we sail a Laser and affix a Starburst logo to its sail, while another party, independent of ILCA, owns IP rights to the boat and the current ILCA rules (of which WE the sailors control) require an agreement between the two. In today's world, if the two parties cannot come to agreement then, under the current rules, we are in a situation where a builder cannot build a boat but can prevent any other potential builder from building a boat called a Laser and selling it in their trademarked territory. (Source = http://sailingforums.com/threads/2011-rule-changes-fundamental-rule.21064/)

Now we now know that BY CHANGING THE RULE, Chris Caldecoat, General Manager of PSA responded:

As a current compliant builder of Laser boats, and an owner of the Laser Trade Mark, PSA has not been consulted by the ILCA or ISAF with respect to their proposal to keep issuing plaques to a boat building company that has failed to comply with their Laser builders contract and has lost the right to build the Kirby Designed boat. (As the Laser is referred to in the LCM.)

PSA does not support this action by the ILCA and ISAF, which is in contravention of the LCM.

Any changes to the LCM (including changes to the plaques) requires approval of all the signatories, these include Bruce Kirby Inc. and PSA. Without those signatures any boats built are not Class legal boats.

For ILCA and ISAF to attempt to change the rules regarding the manufacture of the Kirby designed boat (currently called a Laser) without due process and consideration of all stakeholders is contrary to the principles of our Class.

It is against the sailor’s best interests, the best interest of the builders who do comply with their contracts and support the Class at Olympic, World, Regional and National level, in fact the very future of the Class within ISAF and the Olympics.

PSA would urge all sailors and ISAF Member Nations to support designers and authorised builders across all classes of sailing by acknowledging the invaluable role they play within our sport in creating and developing the equipment necessary for us to go sailing at whatever level we choose. (Source = PSA release)

So on one hand ILCA say that the rule change was to facilitate boat production, then by making the change, another builder and Laser trademark holder says that they are unable to make class legal boats because of the agreements that they have. WE NOW KNOW THAT THE RULE CHANGE WAS NOT A GOOD SOLUTION.

Tracy also said back in 2011:

I agree with the comment that Bruce Kirby has always acted in the best interest of Laser sailing, deserves to have a well earned retirement and is completely blameless in whatever disputes are going on.

(Source = http://sailingforums.com/threads/2011-rule-changes-fundamental-rule.21064/page-3)

Here are some facts:

• Bruce Kirby has launched the "Torch" as a way forward for what we now know as the Laser class
• He has links with builders who have the capability RIGHT NOW to produce the Torch
• A growing number sailors support sailing the same old boat under a different name

All of this HAS to be of HUGE concern to the ILCA, and to all sailors of Lasers everywhere.

To me, the was forward is for the ILCA to reclaim neutral ground by repealing the rule change. It does not have to go to the vote. My understanding is that all it needs is the withdrawal of approval from the Advisory Council and / or the World Council.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

Summary of Gantt's post

All the ILCA officers need to do is admit to themselves they made a less than perfect plan, agree among themselves it is a good idea to look for a way to modify their current plan , come up with a new plan, agree among themselves that new plan is a good one, agree to risk admitting they made the mistakes, agree to provide public support for the new plan, release the new plan, advocate acceptance of that new plan

Yeah. That is gonna happen really soon !!!!

I agree. What seems to be lacking is a vision of how the ILCA can move forward.

In my opinion, Here's some possibilities (which admittedly are oversimplified):

First, let's set the scene:

• Bruce Kirby sold rights to Global Sailing
• LP stopped paying Royalties to Global Sailing
• Kirby gets the rights back from Global Sailing

What could/should have happened (Scenario #1):

• Kirby informs ILCA exactly how LP was in breech of contract
• ILCA/ISAF warn LP that unless they comply with agreement they will no longer get plaques
• LP pay royalties, concentrate on improving their production and we all go sailing

What could/should have happened (Scenario #2):

• Kirby informs ILCA exactly how LP was in breech of contract
• ILCA/ISAF warn LP that unless they comply with agreement they will no longer get plaques
• LP refuse to pay royalties
• A new builder is appointed, rebranded Lasers (the Torch) are built in North America/Europe
• LP sue and win rights to the Trademark Laser, we all sail Torches

What could/should have happened (Scenario #3):

• Kirby informs ILCA exactly how LP was in breech of contract
• ILCA/ISAF warn LP that unless they comply with agreement they will no longer get plaques
• LP refuse to pay royalties
• A new builder is appointed, rebranded Lasers (the Torch) are built in North America/Europe
• LP sue and win rights to the Trademark Laser
• LP sell the Trademark to the new builder, we all sail Lasers again

What could/should have happened (Scenario #4):

• Kirby informs ILCA exactly how LP was in breech of contract
• ILCA/ISAF warn LP that unless they comply with agreement they will no longer get plaques
• LP refuse to pay royalties
• A new builder is appointed, rebranded Lasers (the Torch) are built in North America/Europe
• LP sue and lose rights to the Trademark Laser, we all sail Lasers

Instead we have:

• LP refuse to pay royalties
• Kirby informs ILCA that LP are no longer builders
• ILCA/ISAF effectively support LP by continuing to issue plaques
• Kirby commences legal action
• ILCA/ISAF change the rules and effectively take sides with LP, and in the process muck things up for PSA
• Kirby launches the Torch
• We wait for the legal action outcomes

Maybe the right thing is for the ILCA to try to broker a way forward - and from my way of looking at it, they simply cannot do that if they have taken sides with LP.

Deadline as per the summons was 21 days, that makes it according to my calculations 24 May.

Meanwhile, plans for the Torch are gaining pace.

 

[Board skiff]

Nicely summarised. I cannot understand why ILCA/ISAF did not warn LP that if they didn't pay monies owed they wouldn't get more plaques.

 

[ojfd]

Let me ask another relevant question - what is the MRRP of the Kirby Torch that everyone raves about? Any idea? Anyone have ever heard any announcments? $2499 perhaps?

What differences do you know about in production and promotional costs you believe would allow such a different market price???

Many here expressed their view that largish part of the markup is due to need to supply boats to high profile ISAF events and Olympic games and added value due to being International/Olympic class.

None of this applies to Torch, so why not lower the price for the benefit of fanatic sailors?

Let's make it $3000. Realistic?

$700 in 1975 has the same buying power as $3,025.50 in 2013

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=700.00&year1=1975&year2=2013

 

[TRUTHPUPPETHATESUALL]

Gantt type many words but little truth to me it seem.

Yes fully my ILCA class dues and other pay I and voted two. Bet you I that not many others here do. Big circle jerk.

 

[SimonN]

Let's make it $3000. Realistic?

$700 in 1975 has the same buying power as $3,025.50 in 2013

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=700.00&year1=1975&year2=2013

You cannot use the CPI as an indicator in that way. There is no link between the costs of the "inputs" that go into a boat (labour, raw materials etc.) and the average "shopping" basket used for the CPI. You also fail to take into account changes in distribution methods used today. Back in the day, the price was ex works. Now, the price is ex dealer. Somebody has got to pay the dealer and unfortunately, that comes at a real cost. I bet most Laser/Torch sailors would be very upset if the new Torch organisation stopped using dealers and boats/parts were no longer available locally. Or maybe you would be prepared to give up the dealership network because things would become cheaper, but I suspect that would hurt the class because all evidence is that people are prepared to pay for the convenience of the local dealer.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

Gantt type many words but little truth to me it seem.

Yes fully my ILCA class dues and other pay I and voted two. Bet you I that not many others here do. Big circle jerk.

My name is Bruce Hudson. I am located in New Zealand. I started sailing Lasers in 1983. Currently I am a member of Pupuke Boating club. Periodically, I have been a member of the NZLA (affiliated to the NZLA) though currently am not. In 2011, I voted against the rule change. My intention is to rejoin for next season (starts 1 July) and to sail in the 2014 nationals in Nelson.

I care deeply about my sport, which is racing Lasers.

If you want to engage with me in a meaningful way which I welcome, then you'll need to lift your game.

 

[Wavedancer II]

Gantt type many words but little truth to me it seem.

Yes fully my ILCA class dues and other pay I and voted two. Bet you I that not many others here do. Big circle jerk.

I am sorry to write that I can't discern a meaningful contribution to what is a (mostly) a serious conversation (an anomaly perhaps on this Forum).

 

[Surf-n-Turf]

When I was in my thirties I used to occasionally carry my fully rigged laser over my head, walk down the dock, toss it in, dive after it, swim to the back end, launch myself up over and into the cockpit, then stand up and sail off as I dripped dry.

MOM!! Grandpa is fibbing again!