Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

[RobG]

Nicely summarised. I cannot understand why ILCA/ISAF did not warn LP that if they didn't pay monies owed they wouldn't get more plaques.

Maybe LP threatened to sue for not issuing plaques on the basis that Kirby no longer had a say in the matter, so ILCA chose what they thought was the lesser of 2 evils and changed the class rules to suit LP.

They were probably being threatened with legal action by both sides, so they were caught in a dilema.

Unfortunately their choice is being viewed as motivated by wanting to cover their arses rather than what is best for the class.

 

[Smithy]

Maybe LP threatened to sue for not issuing plaques on the basis that Kirby no longer had a say in the matter, so ILCA chose what they thought was the lesser of 2 evils and changed the class rules to suit LP.

They were probably being threatened with legal action by both sides, so they were caught in a dilema.

Unfortunately their choice is being viewed as motivated by wanting to cover their arses rather than what is best for the class.

I can fully imagine all sorts of threats coming from the LP side and maybe what they didn't foresee was getting sued by Kirby

It would have been a huge call for ILCA to choose to take on LP by refusing to issue plaques, based on complaints froom Kirby that LP weren't complying with a contract between LP and Kirby that we are told ILCA weren't party to and perhaps hadn't even seen. Get sued by LP if they did stop issuing them, as it turns out get sued by Kirby if they don't. Impossible position, abd getting sued by LP probably seemed the most clear and present danger at the time (quite irrespective of the implications for a class with only one licensed builder in each market of cutting off the only builder in their largest markets, with no alternative readily available). Which is why the view that it is not the CA's job to enforce contractual agreements between third parties, and to get out of that via the rule change, seemed the best hope. But they were at risk of getting caught in a dispute like this from the day the class rule referencing contractual agreements between designer and builder was put in place

Clearly getting the parties round a table to hammer it out would have been by far the best solution and maybe someone somewhere is still trying, but it seems rather late and if LP's view is indeed that it can treat the Laser in its markets as a cash cow by just flogging boats to the beach club, etc, market, there may be no incentive for them to try anyway. Maybe in 10 years time at the Sunsail beach clubs the kids will be going "oh look it's a Torch - oh no it isn't, it looks like a Torch but says, er, Laser - what's that daddy?"

 

[Gouvernail]

When I was in my thirties I used to occasionally carry my fully rigged laser over my head, walk down the dock, toss it in, dive after it, swim to the back end, launch myself up over and into the cockpit, then stand up and sail off as I dripped dry.

MOM!! Grandpa is fibbing again!

They only weigh about 170 lbs all put together. Any decently strong 200 pound YOUNG man can carry 170 over his head. .... Especially a young show off.

 

[SimonN]

Sorry, you have this wrong

I can fully imagine all sorts of threats coming from the LP side and maybe what they didn't foresee was getting sued by Kirby

It would have been a huge call for ILCA to choose to take on LP by refusing to issue plaques, based on complaints froom Kirby that LP weren't complying with a contract between LP and Kirby that we are told ILCA weren't party to and perhaps hadn't even seen.

First, they did stop issuing plaques to LP. they were instructed to by ISAF, because it was in breach of the class rules. It was only after they changed the class rules that they started to issue the new plaques to LP. According to ISAF and ILCA, this was not in response to threats from LP but in response to the setting up of the Torch Class Association.

As for not foreseeing they would be sued by Kirby, that is impossible on a number of grounds. First, they were already named in the court action. Secondly, by their own admission, they had been warned ages ago.

What your post doesn't acknowledge is that LP isn't the only builder. The other builders had continued to pay Kirby and PSA have stated that due to the change in rules and their contracts with BK, they are no longer allowed to build class legal Lasers. It is believed that the other builder believes this as well, although we only have inference on this as they have made no public statement. In addition, you seem to want to gloss over the fact that the ILCA were legally obliged to involve PSA in the changes in class rules, something that PSA tell us they weren't involved with.

So it doesn't matter how you dress it up, the actions of the ILCA have screwed up supply for a large chunk of the market. The more I learn about this, the more it stinks of either gross incompetence or dodgy dealings.

 

[Cheap Jibes]

Seems like a strange and unnecessarily provocative action from PSA.

hardly- one of the criticisms of Kirby is that there hasn't been a physical sale of a Kirby Torch yet, so anyone wanting one... even on protest for local sailing... can't buy one.

This picture shows how easy that criticism can (and maybe soon, will) be addressed.

Taking a global point of view I completely understand where you are coming from, and probably agree. Certainly PSA have made it very clear that they come down on Bruce Kirby's side of the dispute, and fair enough.

However from a regional / local perspective, publishing photos taken in their factory of a Laser rebadged as a Kirby Torch only serves to raise questions about PSA's understanding of their local market and their strategic thinking.

Bottom line is that given a choice most Kiwis and Aussies want to continue to sail boats called Lasers.

My point was that it's surprising how readily PSA gave up the moral high ground in this dispute. Now they'll find it quite difficult to run the argument that they've been unwittingly drawn into the dispute while simultaneously promoting the introduction of the Torch class.

 

[BalticBandit]

BTW on the cost, CPi reflects the overall basket of goods and hence evens out certain sectors. One sector it "evens out" is fuel costs since it takes into account CAFE numbers. Since the introduction of the laser, Petroleuum inflation. If you look at Petro input costs, just the per BBL cost has seen a 5x increase in cost since 1975. $700 x 5 = $3500. Add in additional inflation pressures from regulations on emmisions et.

So a better measure of petro product inflation would be gas prices which from 1975 - current went from $0.50/gal to $3.55 http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/Inflation_Rate/Gasoline_Inflation.asp Which is us a 7x increase in cost. So that takes your $700 to $4900

And the reason I use Petro prices as the relevant inflation indicator is that Resin is a petro product. I don't have a direct cost of MFG of resin chart so instead I'll go with Petro prices and since Resin makes up about 80% of the material inputs into the hull and 100% of the material inputs into the sail, that gives you a more accurate inflation number.

So you have a price diff between $4900 and $6,000 of $1,100 or roughly a 25% premium for both "organization" and "desirability premium". (Desirability premium is a notion in econ that if you have two funcitonally similar goods but one is more "desirable" for some reason, people will pay more. So imagine if you have two boats, an Force5 and a Laser, side by side. Which one are you willing to pay more for?)

That's not a very high "Desirability Premium" given other markets - think Wine or cars (Lexus vs. Infinity, Daihatsu vs. Nissan).

Now the other big input into production is Labor. And yes you can build a Laser more cheaply by moving labor to Eastern EU or to the PRC - but that's probably about 25% of cost reduction at best. Remember the knockoffs out there were not built to the CM and it shows up in things like cockpit rails that are not strong enough to support you grabbing them in a roll tack after they've sat in the boatyard UV for say 3 years.

(BTW if an EU mfg other than LP was going to startup, I would locate it in Spain or Greece where the workforce is desperate for work and you have skilled tradesmen to hire).

So I suspect you could build and sell a "Laser" profitably for around $4500 including a Desirabilty Premium which Laser rightly deserves.

The notion of a $3,000 laser is laughable (that's why many of us were so critical in the New Class Dev thread that the Shaw 4 would come in at a price point competitive with a Laser - and it turns out we were right).

 

[Icedtea]

Got the first "Kirby Torch" Newsletter:

Here Comes The Kirby Torch!
We are writing to share a few pictures of the very first Kirby Torch Sailboats. The ranks of Kirby Torch Class Members continue to swell, and we are hard at work setting up a Class Association that will support and represent sailors! In the meantime enjoy a few pictures as the Kirby Torch becomes a reality.




Join the Kirby Torch Class Now Support the Kirby Torch byjoining the class today. We are still getting organized but we are committed to serve sailors of the best racing sailboat in the world. Lost in all the hoopla about the change of name from Laser to Kirby Torch, is that the boat is still the same and we have secured financially sound and competent builders to provide quality hulls and parts to sailors all over the globe. Contact us if you can help organize the Torch Class in your district or region.
Kirby Torch Feedback Click here to read excerpts from actual letters of support we have received from throughout the world. A big thank you to sailors everywhere for their support and encouragement.

Kirby Torch News Click here to read the news archive and subscribe to an RSS feed of the lastest news posted on the Kirby Torch website.

Kirby Torch History Click here to read how Bruce Kirby's doodle became the Kirby Torch.

 

[TRUTHPUPPETHATESUALL]

Gantt type many words but little truth to me it seem.

Yes fully my ILCA class dues and other pay I and voted two. Bet you I that not many others here do. Big circle jerk.

My name is Bruce Hudson. I am located in New Zealand. I started sailing Lasers in 1983. Currently I am a member of Pupuke Boating club. Periodically, I have been a member of the NZLA (affiliated to the NZLA) though currently am not. In 2011, I voted against the rule change. My intention is to rejoin for next season (starts 1 July) and to sail in the 2014 nationals in Nelson.

I care deeply about my sport, which is racing Lasers.

If you want to engage with me in a meaningful way which I welcome, then you'll need to lift your game.

Engage you I want not.

ILCA member are you not.

Vote have you not.

Wrong is it that when member not of ILCA class that think you can tell members to do what.

Go sail Torch you like much. Make class can you and tell Torch members to do what. Leave Laser alone when you care not enough to ILCA class join.

 

[Icedtea]

Notice who's name is on the sail too!

 

[Bruce Hudson]

Bottom line is that given a choice most Kiwis and Aussies want to continue to sail boats called Lasers.

My feeling is that given the choice, most people everywhere (including NZ and Australia) want to sail a Laser, so long as it is the Bruce Kirby design.

Remember that might not be the choice, the choices might become to either sail a "Laser" which is a new design, or sail a "Torch", which is the same as what we sail now.

Given that choice, for me, I'd rather keep on sailing the same boat - albeit with a new name - and I'm not alone.

My point was that it's surprising how readily PSA gave up the moral high ground in this dispute. Now they'll find it quite difficult to run the argument that they've been unwittingly drawn into the dispute while simultaneously promoting the introduction of the Torch class.

If PSA have sided with the party that honours their agreements - then I don't think they have given up the moral high ground at all.

In my estimation, having spent a considerable amount of time reviewing the available information, something just doesn't add up about the ILCA's position. ILCA said back in 2011 "In addition, a builder also needs a building agreement from Bruce Kirby or Bruce Kirby Inc. This provision is mostly historical. The rule was instituted at a time when Bruce Kirby held certain design rights. The ILCA is not a party to any of these “Kirby” agreements."

Rob Kothe in his article for Sail-World said "It's noteworthy that the ILCA Executive Secretary Jeff Martin, is also the Classes Committee Chair within ISAF. His initials JM appear on many of the documents in the list of Exhibits presented to the court." (source = http://www.sail-world.com/index.cfm?nid=107549)

The crystal clear implication is that Jeff Martin knew a lot of the details that the ILCA apparently claimed not to know. At least that's what it seems. It just doesn't add up in my mind. Of course Jeff has done an enormous amount of work for the Laser class over the years. Surely I have it wrong. I would appreciate if someone could explain this to me.

 

[Looper]

Or maybe you would be prepared to give up the dealership network because things would become cheaper, but I suspect that would hurt the class because all evidence is that people are prepared to pay for the convenience of the local dealer.

I would be prepared to give up on the dealers if they could find a reasonable way to ship stuff direct and just sell it all online.

Hell, Amazon shipped me a mattress in two days for free with my Amazon Prime membership, i'm sure someone can figure out a way to ship Lasers and parts cheaper than the overhead that's charged using the dealer network.

 

[BalticBandit]

You would need more markup in the price of the Laser to accomodate that sort of "on demand overnight" shipping. Amazon does it by pushing the shipping cost back onto the MFG. Essentially its being drop shipped from the factory/distributor on behalf of Amazon. So that means that PSA or LPE would need enough margins in their profit to eat the opportunity cost of stocking enough bits for overnight shipping, and the cost of that shipping. I predict that puts the price of a laser closer to $8k...

Boat builders, do not make huge profits simply because

a) the volumes are not there

b.)the automation is not there because the volumes are not there

c) The Cost of Materials is rather high because volumes are low

For example Poly Resin can be had for $0.50/lb if you buy it at 4,000lb at a time. but that's 20 Lasers worth of resin with a shelf-life of 1 year. And that's on the 'spot market" of industrial seconds. Normally its about $3/lb

 

[ojfd]

Hell, Amazon shipped me a mattress in two days for free with my Amazon Prime membership, ..

Did it come from the licenced builder with all "Blessed by the Father of all Mattresses " plaques in place?

If not, you're not allowed to sleep on it, or you will be sued.

 

[BalticBandit]

Hell, Amazon shipped me a mattress in two days for free with my Amazon Prime membership, ..

Did it come from the licenced builder with all "Blessed by the Father of all Mattresses " plaques in place?

If not, you're not allowed to sleep on it, or you will be sued.

Actually it does. Think sketches about "do not remove this label"...

 

[Reht]

Notice who's name is on the sail too!

Go a little earlier in the thread, we've already torn at those photos...

 

[Gouvernail]

Puppet sock make to post intelligence absent.

Level of discourse same remains

Here read make sense not puppet be Wess?

Not probably just same make points

Cheap is post anal orifice name withheld make

Product eat you of orifice same and die person sex enjoys with parent female

 

[Surf-n-Turf]

Engage you I want not.

ILCA member are you not.

Vote have you not.

Wrong is it that when member not of ILCA class that think you can tell members to do what.

Go sail Torch you like much. Make class can you and tell Torch members to do what. Leave Laser alone when you care not enough to ILCA class join.

I didn't know Yoda raced Torched Lasers. We need to update the class rules that competitors can not use the force to change the weather. While we are at it, light sabers stay on the dock.

 

[Gouvernail]

I didn't know Yoda raced Torched Lasers. We need to update the class rules that competitors can not use the force to change the weather. While we are at it, light sabers stay on the dock.

Your spelling demonstrates the source of your confusion.

When sailing Lasers, especially on regatta days, most especially with Canadians, and whenever following the campground parties....

Most on the water hails are wuite sensibly replaced .

For instance: rather than hailing for bouy room when any cretin can easily see it is due , the half sobered up Laser sailor simply points at the buoy then the outside boat's helmsdrunk and with slightly raised voice says, "Yo!! Duh?!?"

In international competition the hail more commonly used os for sailors from the USA who have finally for the first time on their bloody awful lives experienced real beer as opposed to that pisseatrr sold on their homeland

In this case the hungover helmsdrunk hears, " Fer Crissakes Yank you owe me some passage space ."

 

[BalticBandit]

Unless its an event in Mexico when the hail will be "WATER!!!" with someone looking like they just had the trots in their wetsuit!

 

[Bruce Hudson]

Still trying to figure something out about the ILCA where they claimed not to know about the agreements.

In Sail-World "It's noteworthy that the ILCA Executive Secretary Jeff Martin, is also the Classes Committee Chair within ISAF. His initials JM appear on many of the documents in the list of Exhibits presented to the court." (source = http://www.sail-worl....cfm?nid=107549)

So surely Jeff Martin knew more than the ILCA claimed to know. Seems like Jeff stood by while Tracy said a whole lot of stuff like "According the the Bruce Kirby interview in SailWorld, Bruce Kirby, Inc, licensed the IP rights to the builders through contractual agreements. ILCA is not party to those agreements, has no knowledge (as far as I know) of what they contain." (Source = http://sailingforums.com/threads/2011-rule-changes-fundamental-rule.21064/page-10)

And now the ILCA say:

"ILCA has been named as a co-defendant in a complaint filed in U.S. District Court for the District of Connecticut and has been recently notified of the plaintiff’s intention to formally serve ILCA with the complaint. ILCA intends to vigorously defend itself if necessary, but our primary focus continues to be facilitating a meaningful settlement dialog between the parties in the hopes of reaching an amicable resolution. ILCA has always favoured a negotiated resolution to this dispute.


To be clear, ILCA is not a judge or a court of law and takes no position on the relative merits of the claims made by either of the commercial entities involved in the law suit. ILCA has always maintained that this dispute is based on contracts to which it is not a party and has repeatedly encouraged and requested the commercial parties to these contracts to voluntarily engage in meaningful settlement negotiations. ILCA once again urges the real parties to this dispute to settle their differences and avoid unnecessary expense and damage to the reputation of our sport." (Source = http://www.laserinternational.org/info/statementfromtheinternationallaserclassassociation)
It just doesn't add up at all. Of course, by issuing plaques and changing the rules the ILCA took a firm and resolute position that supported LP over Kirby. And by doing so became a party to the disagreement.

And if Jeff Martin was the "JM" who had initialled the documents that are now part of Kirby's civil action exhibits, then he certainly knew a lot more about the agreements than the ILCA claimed to know. As I said, it just doesn't add up.


I hope the ILCA is not hell-bent on spending ILCA funds on trying to defend the indefensible.