Lithium Power Packs Connected To Shore Power System

[mckenzie.keith]

So let me get this correct - LFP can be dangerous if put on a hot plate, or in the oven, or metal spikes drove through them, or they sit immersed in seawater for a year until they corrode (only the metal cased ones, though), and that a single incident in someone's mother's basement of a LFP battery "spontaneously" catching fire that has no other information, including the actual cause of the almost fire shows how this could be a bad thing on a boat.

You have totally convinced me of the dangers of LFP.

I think part of the problem is that you think I am saying "LFP batteries are dangerous." But what I am really saying is that under the right circumstances, LFP batteries can be ignited.

LFP batteries are safe enough for me.

But it would not take a year for cells inside a battery to corrode in seawater. Probably less than an hour. This is not passive corrosion I am talking about. It is electrolysis driven by the potential of the battery cells themselves. When you put two metal electrodes in seawater and there is enough potential between them, redox reactions occur at both electrodes. One of them will have junk stick to it and the other one will rapidly erode. Kind of like electroplating in reverse.

Battleborn batteries are plastic cased, but the actual cells inside (according to teardown videos) are cylindrical metal cells. Battleborn's website specifically says that in case of immersion or continual high humidity, moisture may enter the case and cause damage (no mention of fire, though). They do offer a waterproof kit which should probably be considered essential for mariners using Battleborn batteries, just for reliability, not necessarily for fire.

Other batteries use those monolithic, blue-wrapped cells. Or old-school CALB cells (not sure the details of construction on those but they look pretty robust). I don't know if the metal under the blue wrap is connected to either electrode of the battery. I could check that though because I have some 176 Ah blue-wrapped brick cells.

I understand your skepticism about the fire because there are so few details available. But the issue here is that skepticism must be applied most energetically to the things you want to believe. "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool." I have made my living designing electronics and occasionally I have screwed up and had things go wrong and I have had to figure out my mistake. What happens is someone says, hey, we have a widget that doesn't work. The QA tester said the flux capacitor caught on fire and now it doesn't work. You say that is impossible, the flux capacitor can't catch on fire. Its probably a fluke. If you leave it at that, then when production starts, you may very well find out that 1 out of 1000 units has a flux capacitor that catches on fire and you will have to stop production and figure out what is going on and fix it. The CEO will be getting daily briefings from your boss. It is uncomfortable.

The one LFP fire I know of is like the report of the flux capacitor. Much as I don't want to believe that LFP batteries can contribute to a fire on a boat, I now have a question in my mind about it. And YOU SHOULD TOO. This is not the same as saying that LFP batteries are unsafe. It is just about taking things seriously. It is frustrating to know so little about the failure though.

Being skeptical of things you don't want to believe is no special skill and is not a sign of a great scientific mind. In fact, a lot of people who invoke skepticism actually are idiots, and do it VERY selectively. It is simple human nature and is quite easy to do. Being skeptical of things you have become emotionally invested in is difficult but necessary. We make excuses for the ideas we love. I do try to avoid the emotional investment part, though, but I am not always successful.

I try to approach reports of failure with an open mind.

 

[blurocketsmate]

@SailingTips.Ca likes his Bluetti. Many of us have a similar use case.

 

[El Borracho]

@SailingTips.Ca likes his Bluetti. Many of us have a similar use case.

That is encouraging. My 50’ luxury cruiser is not much more complicated than his minimalist tri. Except for the anchor windlass. The sea of blue boxes wired together is exactly what I will never do. Been there, done that, threw it all away.

 

[Grith]

@SailingTips.Ca likes his Bluetti. Many of us have a similar use case.

I completely understand his rational having also owned and raced a trailerable trimaran myself. You want light, simple and are really only camping when staying onboard for shortish periods.
With now a outboard engined trailerable live aboard capable yacht combined with a tough but previously non sailing partner things like compressor refrigeration occasional electrically heated hot water showers and induction cooking without needing to resupply gas or alcohol also come into play for me.
These require a bigger powerbank that the little one he is reviewing.
We cook via the induction cooktop (on a removable board over the retained origo alcohol stove) on the yacht and when the powerbank is swapped to our slide on truck camper it also powers its microwave.
The camper currently has gas cooking and gas/electric hotwater as when on land these are readily available and safe as gas drops out of the camper if leaking as distinct from potentially accumulating in the bilges.
I may also change these systems in the camper to electric in future.
I have left my two AGM’s running the usual yacht systems as these are mounted centrally on the hull just behind the unweighted swing keel and act as additional internal lead ballast whilst also performing the engine start function.
Combining these with my lithium power banks plugged into my shore power system gives a whole level of back up redundancy which is very comforting for our very remote area cruising.
Yes my system is looking a little like his dreaded maze of wiring so common on many modern craft but with the advantage that it’s two separate systems both able to operate virtually independently of one another should one fail.
Finally like discussed in the video the portable removable powerbanks do other duties at home when not camping or cruising.

 

[colemj]

You are joking, right? My past century kit of generic alternator, meter of cable and lead-acid battery are readily serviced or replaced worldwide. Compare that with the complicated interconnections of multiple pretty (expensive fussy unrepairable DHL-dependent) blue boxes proudly depicted wherever LFP is being installed.

I meant if one has equipment like yours, then that probably should be changed if going to LFP. So it is an extra onus.

There are tons more choices than Victron for these.

 

[colemj]

I can buy chargers today brand new that don't work well with LFP. Shouldn't be used with LFP. Also, due to the very high acceptance of LFP, there is a risk of cooking the alternator if you replace a house battery with a drop-in and then try to charge it with an alternator. At least that is what Victron says. So people are using DC-DC chargers between the alternator and the LFP. In other words, expensive support equipment.

There is so much wrong with that Victron video that they should be deeply ashamed of themselves. Just for starters, they don't use the recommended pulley ratio for that alternator (not by a long shot), so it is starved for cooling. It barely has cooling air going through it at all. The same outcome would be had charging AGM, and potentially FLA batteries. That is just one of other aspects of that experiment that were wrong or misleading.

Victron was purposefully manufacturing a fail situation to sell equipment. It is one of the rare times, if only time, I've seen them do it.

 

[colemj]

I think part of the problem is that you think I am saying "LFP batteries are dangerous." But what I am really saying is that under the right circumstances, LFP batteries can be ignited.

LFP batteries are safe enough for me.

But it would not take a year for cells inside a battery to corrode in seawater. Probably less than an hour. This is not passive corrosion I am talking about. It is electrolysis driven by the potential of the battery cells themselves. When you put two metal electrodes in seawater and there is enough potential between them, redox reactions occur at both electrodes. One of them will have junk stick to it and the other one will rapidly erode. Kind of like electroplating in reverse.

Battleborn batteries are plastic cased, but the actual cells inside (according to teardown videos) are cylindrical metal cells. Battleborn's website specifically says that in case of immersion or continual high humidity, moisture may enter the case and cause damage (no mention of fire, though). They do offer a waterproof kit which should probably be considered essential for mariners using Battleborn batteries, just for reliability, not necessarily for fire.

Other batteries use those monolithic, blue-wrapped cells. Or old-school CALB cells (not sure the details of construction on those but they look pretty robust). I don't know if the metal under the blue wrap is connected to either electrode of the battery. I could check that though because I have some 176 Ah blue-wrapped brick cells.

I understand your skepticism about the fire because there are so few details available. But the issue here is that skepticism must be applied most energetically to the things you want to believe. "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool." I have made my living designing electronics and occasionally I have screwed up and had things go wrong and I have had to figure out my mistake. What happens is someone says, hey, we have a widget that doesn't work. The QA tester said the flux capacitor caught on fire and now it doesn't work. You say that is impossible, the flux capacitor can't catch on fire. Its probably a fluke. If you leave it at that, then when production starts, you may very well find out that 1 out of 1000 units has a flux capacitor that catches on fire and you will have to stop production and figure out what is going on and fix it. The CEO will be getting daily briefings from your boss. It is uncomfortable.

The one LFP fire I know of is like the report of the flux capacitor. Much as I don't want to believe that LFP batteries can contribute to a fire on a boat, I now have a question in my mind about it. And YOU SHOULD TOO. This is not the same as saying that LFP batteries are unsafe. It is just about taking things seriously. It is frustrating to know so little about the failure though.

Being skeptical of things you don't want to believe is no special skill and is not a sign of a great scientific mind. In fact, a lot of people who invoke skepticism actually are idiots, and do it VERY selectively. It is simple human nature and is quite easy to do. Being skeptical of things you have become emotionally invested in is difficult but necessary. We make excuses for the ideas we love. I do try to avoid the emotional investment part, though, but I am not always successful.

I try to approach reports of failure with an open mind.

Well, I'm a scientist, and was trained to not accept anecdotes or heresay as fact. It has nothing to do with skepticism. You must have missed when I described looking for years for a single example of a LFP battery catching fire on a boat (due to the battery itself). I'm actively searching to prove my hypothesis wrong. Finding an example would definitely color how I approach them, and provide great insight. I don't think it is impossible - but I've found no evidence to the contrary, and I do think it is extremely improbable.

So many boats through so many years with lead batteries that have been proven dangerous. But no problem with that - LFP might catch fire if one drives a metal spear through them, so let's worry about that instead. What is "unsafe"? A single manufactured example far outside the realm of possibility? A single anecdote, even if true, of an application totally unrelated to boat systems?

Why should this type of potential safety issue be a question on my mind? Should I worry about an airplane falling on my boat too? If I am aware of how these batteries should be installed safely, and aware of the massive safety track record in boats, and continue to look for that unicorn example, isn't this enough?

I'm massively worried about the non-LFP lithium batteries on my boat, and none of them except the computers get charged outside of a special fireproof bag or unattended. I was more concerned about lead batteries on the boat since I've had two get so red hot they could have caught fire, and another spontaneously release gas and acid everywhere. But LFP? Not so much at all.

But coming up with examples that are so unreal isn't helpful on either side. Saying under the right circumstances LFP can be ignited isn't meaningful unless one of those circumstances could plausibly happen on a boat. Driving giant metal spikes through them is not plausible. If you have a battery compartment that is always underwater or gets soaking wet, then there is a larger issue that is a problem for almost any battery. FWIW, ABYC specifically addresses this point about batteries should be installed where they cannot get wet.

If you happen to find a situation where the metal case (only) batteries get wet and start electrically corroding, then the only thing that will happen is the battery will die without projecting damage and you are out money. It seems silly to go on about this because it is so easy to avoid it by either buying sealed batteries or installing them in a dry place.

 

[mckenzie.keith]

There is so much wrong with that Victron video that they should be deeply ashamed of themselves. Just for starters, they don't use the recommended pulley ratio for that alternator (not by a long shot), so it is starved for cooling. It barely has cooling air going through it at all. The same outcome would be had charging AGM, and potentially FLA batteries. That is just one of other aspects of that experiment that were wrong or misleading.

Victron was purposefully manufacturing a fail situation to sell equipment. It is one of the rare times, if only time, I've seen them do it.

I noticed that about the pulley ratio. I agree with you about that. I mean it is fine to use a 1:1 ratio in a test, but then you have to run at the correct speed to get the correct alternator RPMs. I think most alternators can spin up to at least 10,000 rpm.

 

[mckenzie.keith]

Well, I'm a scientist, and was trained to not accept anecdotes or heresay as fact.

Nobody is asking you to. If I say that eating clay prevents cancer and I hear about someone in another village who ate clay and caught cancer, I should not accept that as a fact, that clay doesn't work, but I should not dismiss it either. You are being dismissive.

It has nothing to do with skepticism. You must have missed when I described looking for years for a single example of a LFP battery catching fire on a boat (due to the battery itself). I'm actively searching to prove my hypothesis wrong.

I gave you an example of an LFP fire in a house and you were not very receptive. I would even say you were actively belittling it, and used a mocking tone when discussing it. Also, when people mentioned E-bike fires you said, without a shred of evidence, if the e-bikes are catching on fire you can assume the batteries are not LFP. If that is your methodology, assuming all fires are not LFP and ridiculing people who provide examples of LFP fires, then I have my doubts about your methodology. I doubt you will ever find a case where an LFP battery caught on fire unless it burns your boat down to the waterline.

Finding an example would definitely color how I approach them, and provide great insight. I don't think it is impossible - but I've found no evidence to the contrary, and I do think it is extremely improbable.

Me too. Except for that one event already mentioned (not in a boat).

So many boats through so many years with lead batteries that have been proven dangerous. But no problem with that - LFP might catch fire if one drives a metal spear through them, so let's worry about that instead. What is "unsafe"? A single manufactured example far outside the realm of possibility? A single anecdote, even if true, of an application totally unrelated to boat systems?

I am not worried about spikes. YOU ARE THE ONE WHO BROUGHT IT UP. YOU said that you can pierce them with spikes and they don't catch fire. I certainly never would have brought it up especially in this thread which isn't even about LFP. I am hoping that now that you have seen the video you will stop saying that. But based on our interaction I doubt it. I think you will go on saying that LFP is non-combustible and cannot be ignited. Maybe not in this forum.

Why should this type of potential safety issue be a question on my mind? Should I worry about an airplane falling on my boat too? If I am aware of how these batteries should be installed safely, and aware of the massive safety track record in boats, and continue to look for that unicorn example, isn't this enough?

I'm massively worried about the non-LFP lithium batteries on my boat, and none of them except the computers get charged outside of a special fireproof bag or unattended. I was more concerned about lead batteries on the boat since I've had two get so red hot they could have caught fire, and another spontaneously release gas and acid everywhere. But LFP? Not so much at all.

But coming up with examples that are so unreal isn't helpful on either side. Saying under the right circumstances LFP can be ignited isn't meaningful unless one of those circumstances could plausibly happen on a boat.

OK, but you are the one who said they can't catch on fire even when spiked or placed in a fire. I would never have brought it up otherwise. I mean you are saying things that are not true. As a scientist does that not bother you?

Driving giant metal spikes through them is not plausible. If you have a battery compartment that is always underwater or gets soaking wet, then there is a larger issue that is a problem for almost any battery. FWIW, ABYC specifically addresses this point about batteries should be installed where they cannot get wet.

So the ABYC doesn't want batteries installed on small boats. Got it.

If you happen to find a situation where the metal case (only) batteries get wet and start electrically corroding, then the only thing that will happen is the battery will die without projecting damage and you are out money. It seems silly to go on about this because it is so easy to avoid it by either buying sealed batteries or installing them in a dry place.

I think it is useful to mention because it emphasizes the importance of sealing the batteries. I think a lot of batteries that people are actually putting in boats are not as sealed as people think they are. I have personally seen Battleborn batteries in a boat that was for sale. Based on teardown videos, and Battleborn's own FAQ on their website, I seriously question whether it is a good idea to put them on boats unless they have the waterproof kit. Do people know this? They should be aware.

All in all you act like an industry shill who feels that you have an obligation to not frighten the masses by providing any information which if not interpreted properly could cause them to be fearful of LFP batteries. You are also trying to get me to act the same way (like when you said "just stop.")

 

[kent_island_sailor]

I disagree with the criticism of that test. Lithium cells, or big AGMS for that matter, can look pretty close to a dead short to an alternator. Charging at idle or low-ish RPMs is a worst case that will be hard on the alternator or kill it. They were TRYING to set up the worst case here to show what can happen.
Using a regulator with a temperature sensor is exactly how you prevent this issue. I have temp sensors on my alternator and on my battery to avoid these issues. They were even showing Balmar regulators and sensors that they don't even sell.
The other way to avoid this issue is a DC-DC charger to limit what the lithium bank can draw. They do sell those

 

[kent_island_sailor]

Re lithium fires: Many insurance companies either refuse to insure boats with lithium batteries or will only pay 50% of hull losses. They must have a reason.
I know of boats destroyed by battery fires some years ago. I don't have the spare time to go Googling all day, but a brief look shows all kinds of fires caused by lithium batteries in all kinds of devices brought on board boats and ships. The modern LifePo batteries usually used on boats are likely vastly safer than drill batteries, computer batteries, electric car batteries, electric surfboard batteries, dive light batteries, and the 101 other products that were never designed to be on a boat.
I would be much more wary of the little jump-starters and consumer power-pack devices than all but the worst of LifePo batteries.

 

[mckenzie.keith]

I disagree with the criticism of that test. Lithium cells, or big AGMS for that matter, can look pretty close to a dead short to an alternator. Charging at idle or low-ish RPMs is a worst case that will be hard on the alternator or kill it. They were TRYING to set up the worst case here to show what can happen.
Using a regulator with a temperature sensor is exactly how you prevent this issue. I have temp sensors on my alternator and on my battery to avoid these issues. They were even showing Balmar regulators and sensors that they don't even sell.
The other way to avoid this issue is a DC-DC charger to limit what the lithium bank can draw. They do sell those

But they were running 1:1. Normally the alternator runs much faster than the engine. So when the engine is idling at (I don't know, 1000 RPMs? 750?) the alternator will be going at least 2x as fast, if not 3x. It seemed as if they overlooked this completely in some of the narration.

But you are right, the temp sensor solution does not benefit Victron.

 

[mckenzie.keith]

Re lithium fires: Many insurance companies either refuse to insure boats with lithium batteries or will only pay 50% of hull losses. They must have a reason.
I know of boats destroyed by battery fires some years ago. I don't have the spare time to go Googling all day, but a brief look shows all kinds of fires caused by lithium batteries in all kinds of devices brought on board boats and ships. The modern LifePo batteries usually used on boats are likely vastly safer than drill batteries, computer batteries, electric car batteries, electric surfboard batteries, dive light batteries, and the 101 other products that were never designed to be on a boat.

I think now that the ABYC has spoken, insurance companies will have a hard time justifying refusing insurance going forward (as long as the installation is ABYC compliant).

 

[kent_island_sailor]

But they were running 1:1. Normally the alternator runs much faster than the engine. So when the engine is idling at (I don't know, 1000 RPMs? 750?) the alternator will be going at least 2x as fast, if not 3x. It seemed as if they overlooked this completely in some of the narration.

But you are right, the temp sensor solution does not benefit Victron.

I was in the marine electrical business for some years and a LOT of burned-out alternators resulted from setting up big banks and multi-stage regulators.
The worst were stock alternators adapted to external regulators, they didn't seem to last out a season.

 

[kent_island_sailor]

I think now that the ABYC has spoken, insurance companies will have a hard time justifying refusing insurance going forward (as long as the installation is ABYC compliant).

They can refuse insurance because it is Tuesday, that won't even slow them down if they are in a bad mood. ABYC compliant professional installation and USA based battery sources have been the requirement for some time now to get insurance AT ALL with lithium batteries, 50% deductible or not.
That is a total non-starter for many of us, such an installation done at the going shop rates with ABYC compliant contactor BMS systems would cost about as much as many older boats are worth.
* note the BMS system must provide an alarm to warn you if it is going to shut down soon. I have never seen any battery system I could afford that did anything like that. I just got new batteries and did not get lithiums because I don't think any of the cheaper batteries have a BMS close to what I would see as a seaworthy solution. One hint is that if the charge and discharge connections are the same, then any BMS hiccup leaves you dark-ship, it all goes off at once. So if a battery with an internal BMS only has + and - terminals, it has no separate charge connection.

 

[mckenzie.keith]

They can refuse insurance because it is Tuesday, that won't even slow them down if they are in a bad mood. ABYC compliant professional installation and USA based battery sources have been the requirement for some time now to get insurance AT ALL with lithium batteries, 50% deductible or not.
That is a total non-starter for many of us, such an installation done at the going shop rates with ABYC compliant contactor BMS systems would cost about as much as many older boats are worth.
* note the BMS system must provide an alarm to warn you if it is going to shut down soon. I have never seen any battery system I could afford that did anything like that. I just got new batteries and did not get lithiums because I don't think any of the cheaper batteries have a BMS close to what I would see as a seaworthy solution. One hint is that if the charge and discharge connections are the same, then any BMS hiccup leaves you dark-ship, it all goes off at once. So if a battery with an internal BMS only has + and - terminals, it has no separate charge connection.

I was thinking of new boats. I get what you are saying vis-a-vis older boats. There have been a lot of random mentions of insurance. A lot of people have said they had no problem.

 

[kent_island_sailor]

My insurance company is very lax, they just say the boat must be seaworthy. That is of course a loophole big enough to fit a freighter through sideways
* tell me Mr. KIS, where are your certificates in ABYC Lithium Batteries? Oh you don't have any? DENIED!

* here is something creepy, at the last boat show an insurance agent was bugging battery sellers for the names of people who bought their lithium batteries so they could cancel their policies.

 

[Grith]

Well nothing like a good old slagging match to tease out both some very interesting and relevant facts and some overblown bullshit!
Insurance requirements and insurance companies along with courts, judges and stupid laws and their interpretations have a lot to answer for in my view.
They have destroyed so many enjoyable and worthwhile things in our lives by making them either affordably or just totally uninsurable and alternatively courts awarding payouts for what should be sheeted home to personal negligence, stupidity or known and accepted risks.
I can no longer go horse riding at a hire location with my daughter at anything but a strictly controlled walk due to insurance constraints here in Australia just as an example.
Conversely having paid enormous amounts of insurance over extended periods some insurance companies will move heaven and earth to try to avoid paying claims.
I blame our litigation based society where it’s always someone else’s fault when something goes wrong and whilst the majority of people still accept personal responsibility for their actions many now just try to claim on others to resolve any issue.
Issues with battery fires are becoming very common and I for one would no longer live in high rise apartment buildings with basement car parks filling with electric cars and apartments potentially containing things like cheap electric scooters being charged from a wall outlet.
I am happy to have battery devices on my yacht however as I am the one responsible for their monitoring, care and maintenance, choice of disposal if suspect and choice of what I am happy to bring on board.
I wonder when cruise ships will vet all devices brought on board having potentially an even worse issue than high rise apartment blocks.

 

[mckenzie.keith]

My insurance company is very lax, they just say the boat must be seaworthy. That is of course a loophole big enough to fit a freighter through sideways
* tell me Mr. KIS, where are your certificates in ABYC Lithium Batteries? Oh you don't have any? DENIED!

* here is something creepy, at the last boat show an insurance agent was bugging battery sellers for the names of people who bought their lithium batteries so they could cancel their policies.

Do you recall saying that your boat was seaworthy when you applied for insurance?

I mean, yeah.

But the boat sank?

Right, that is why I am filing a claim.

I'm sorry, a seaworthy boat would not sink. Claim denied due to fraud.

 

[TBW]

My best guess is with boats like ours (under 30 feet) is the days of them being sold new with gas outboards is limited. I think increasingly boats in this size range are going to be equipped with electric outboards and the necessary batteries to run them.

So, your power pack idea, probably not exactly as you have it, but I think we will see bigger and better batteries and the associated charging equipment and inverters to go with it.

My trailer sailer is all electric. Solar, Lithium house battery, plus the Torqeedo battery. A bit like you, when RVing I remove the battery and solar system from the boat and put it on the travel trailer and also use it around home when the power goes out, easy to do, because when the boats not in use, it's parked in the drive way.

BTW, the lithium batteries in your Torqeedos are probably not LFP depending what model you may have Lithium-NMC or Lithium NCA and there are people safely using Torqeedos all over the place, so the talk suggesting LFP being the only lithium battery system that is used on boats isn't really the case.

Non LFP Torqeedo batteries are widely used in both commercial and recreational boats. If you buy a new electric Beneteau Oceanis 30.1, it's probably coming with Torqeedo batteries.