Looking for advice: Teak hand- and toe-rail repair/replacement J/22 (repost from fix-it)

[The_Cunning_Ham]

Hi SA J-boat community. I am trying to gain some insight into repairing and/or replacing both hand- and toe-rails on a fleet of J/22s (12 boats) that live at a community sailing center where they are ridden hard and put away wet. Currently, there are some safety concerns with these items and I am leading a committee tasked with finding and implementing a solution on a shoestring not-for-profit budget (I am a volunteer).

We have four handrail solutions, two of which I will list here, and would like feedback on as well as two two-rail solutions. It is not our intention to maintain the "beauty of the boat" or class legality, these are functional and safety fixes, not attempting to put lipstick on a pig. Further, items from Waterline are likely outside of our budget:

HAND-RAIL - Does anyone have a machine/dimensioned drawing?

1. Repair current teak rails - remove, use structural thickened epoxy to build up and fill screw holes, sand, thinned epoxy for waterproofing and structural improvement, redrill, and remount with backing plate. This solution is labor intensive, West system component cost is unknown.
2. Utilize stainless rails (not from Waterline Systems) and mounts similar to these pictured HERE.
3. Open to alternative solutions and suggestions

TOE-RAIL - Does anyone have a cross-sectional dimensioned drawing and/or full drawing with extrusion lengths and radius of curvature?

1. Repair using the method described above in the hand-rail section (remove, fill, sand, epoxy, re-mount), there is concern that removal will be difficult, and 5200 bonding will result in old teak coming up in partial pieces.
2. Starboard extrusion, develop router template and machine.
3. Open to alternative solutions and suggestions

Some photos attached below show the state of hand-rails which are worn and wobbly and toe rails which are in similar worn condition.

Thanks,
CH

 

[WCB]

I think it's in the Waterline Systems thread where they mention the company that makes the plastic toe rail extrusions. I'll see if I can find it. https://www.barbourmarine.com/toe_rails_spray_rails.php

Hand rails. The stock teak hand rails from West Marine often do the trick. Just measure carefully but their price is usually pretty reasonable. https://www.westmarine.com/whitecap-teak-handrails-P012482600.html

 

[jpfox219]

I know it is blasphemy but some pic's I've seen look like handicap bathroom hand rails are being used. Looks like the Home Depot variety.
Likely durable, solid and cheap.

 

[The_Cunning_Ham]

I know it is blasphemy but some pic's I've seen look like handicap bathroom hand rails are being used. Looks like the Home Depot variety.
Likely durable, solid and cheap.

We were thinking something like this so not too far off. Should cost ~$110 or so a boat which is cheaper than can be done with the new teak or ~$300 for Waterline Systems stainless rails.

 

[WCB]

I know it is blasphemy but some pic's I've seen look like handicap bathroom hand rails are being used. Looks like the Home Depot variety.
Likely durable, solid and cheap.

easy now...that's what I have on my J22s(yes, two, for now).

 

[WCB]

We were thinking something like this so not too far off. Should cost ~$110 or so a boat which is cheaper than can be done with the new teak or ~$300 for Waterline Systems stainless rails.
View attachment 592789

There's also a place that does custom marine. You might be able to get it cheaper than Waterline, heck, they may have made it for them.

Defender has some: https://defender.com/en_us/white-water-stainless-steel-round-grab-rail

Hamilton has pvc: https://shop.hamiltonmarine.com/products/handrail-pvc-12--on-center-44354.html

I've used Boat Outfitters for a bunch of custom stuff. With this option you can get them to make it so you can re-use existing holes: https://www.boatoutfitters.com/custom-grab-rails

 

[The_Cunning_Ham]

There's also a place that does custom marine. You might be able to get it cheaper than Waterline, heck, they may have made it for them.

Defender has some: https://defender.com/en_us/white-water-stainless-steel-round-grab-rail

Hamilton has pvc: https://shop.hamiltonmarine.com/products/handrail-pvc-12--on-center-44354.html

I've used Boat Outfitters for a bunch of custom stuff. With this option you can get them to make it so you can re-use existing holes: https://www.boatoutfitters.com/custom-grab-rails

These are all awesome suggestions, keep in mind were targeting a budget solution for 12 boats. The closer the replacement gets to ~100 per pair the more feasible the solution.

Thanks,
CH

 

[WCB]

These are all awesome suggestions, keep in mind were targeting a budget solution for 12 boats. The closer the replacement gets to ~100 per pair the more feasible the solution.

Thanks,
CH

I would talk to boat outfitters about a deal on twelve sets. There's bound to be a discount in the volume.

 

[Gouvernail]

The following filibuster is intended to provide some info and help Manage expectations .


The teak itself is currently selling for close to $50 per board foot. Sawing the shapes is not a particularly difficult process. Making a dozen sets of hand and toe rails would take me a couple days or so . I will run some numbers and let you know what I would need to bring supplies when I come to get that Wood Thistle. I bought it yesterday.
The teak and saw blades cost way less than factory purchased products.

As for removal of the old, surface prep, and installation of new, three man days is about how long it takes in my shop where we have all the right tools and materials on hand and two guys who have replaced rails on dozens of J boats.
You will need:
500-1200 1 1/2” pan head #10 machine screws
500-1200. #10 non locking nuts
500-1200 3/16” ID. X. 5/8” OD washers
+_ 1200 3/8” teak plugs
+_ ten sets of 1 Oz tubes of 5 metal mute epoxy to glue the plugs
12-24 cartridges of 5200 sealant
A few quarts of 90% isopropyl alcohol for hand and tool cleaning
A few rolls of Bounty select a size
A couple dozen 2 1/2” or longer machine screws to hold the rails in place while drilling and dry fitting the toe rails (a two man team has to put them in place, drill the holes, take them off, counter sink the holes for plugging, and reinstall with the right screws and caulk)
The handrails need four or five fastener sets each. That, per boat, is ten 1/4” pan head machine screws, ten 1 1/2” fender washers, and Ten nylon insert lock nuts. If the fender washers are thin you should add 1/4” x 3/4” washers to spread the load.
Every fastener will need a 7/16” teak plug
You will need a couple more 5 minute epoxy kits
One 5200 cartridge can probably install all 24 handrail sets.

Odds are very bad you will find lots of composted balsa core surrounding the old handrails.
You will probably be able to use bent nails s as nd dig out around each hole. You will
Probably be able to tape a little “Hershey kiss” of Bondo on the bottom of each excavated hole and pour in West System epoxy to make a solid core section around each hole.
Whoever makes the new handrails has to know the spacing on the old holes so the new handrails can have their feet over the old holes.

Unskilled hands can use battery powered drivers to destroy brand new teak. The rails need to be fastened securely but not too tightly. Hand tightening a few rails before starting to use power tools is a very good and necessary education.

If my twenty year guy and I had to do the tiersiks and handrails on a dozen J-22 we would probably need over a month. Two guys with reasonable skills and no J-boat specific experience would struggle to finish the first boat in a week.

 

[Sailnfaster]

Check out White Water Marine for stainless - they have many of the J/Boat designs and may have these handrail specs. www.whitewatermarineinc.com

 

[USA 236]

You could buy new teak handrails for less effort and expense than what you are proposing. You won't have any luck getting parts from Waterline. Have a fabricator build you some stainless ones from some ones dimensions.

 

[Gouvernail]

I really don’t see why the 1 1/2” stainless tube bathroom handrails wouidnt be just fine.

 

[in_TO]

Crosssheeting over stainless handrails is a lot smoother compared to teak.

 

[SailMoore1]

I replaced the teak on my J with black marine board. Just about as easy to work as teak and never have to oil or varnish again.