Loss of S/V Raindancer (KP44)

D

DDW

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In contrast, I probably tied to 80 bull rails just last year. Saw lots of whales but missed them all.

The closest I've come is being narrowly missed (20' maybe?) by a surfacing humpback just out the San Juan DeFuca. We were sailing at a decent clip, he (she?) came under our port quarter and surfaced on the starboard side, blowing stinky snot all over the boat. As I understand it, humpbacks do not echo locate, so they don't know where you are unless you are making a lot of noise. I think only the Big Ocean theory kept us from colliding on that occasion.
 
J

Jud - s/v Sputnik

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DDW said:
blowing stinky snot all over the boat.
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Be careful of calling whale spray “stinky snot”.

I was (foolishly) reading the comments on a mainstream newspaper story yesterday about the sinking of the KP44. Some old salt of a dude in his ‘80s in the comments was recounting whale encounters he’d had over the decades, crossing various oceans in various sailboats, to establish his cred with the audience. He mentioned a similar (to your) encounter, with a nearby whale stinking as it blew. Which invited a stream of invective hurled at him by other commenters, that he is typical uncaring, unfeeling human saying such unkind things about whales, and that whales probably think he stinks. I’ll bet it’s true (that whale spray stinks). And I’m willing to say it if I ever get a chance to smell it.
 
D

DDW

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At least here in the good 'ol lower 48, I believe I am constitutionally protected from the whales or their legal team. To be libel a statement has to be objectively provable and factually false. I worked in a team of engineers which got sued by Carl Sagan for calling him a "butt head astronomer". Judge threw it out, it was our constitutional right, as it could not be objectively proven and (we thought) probably was factually true.
 
K

Kenny Dumas

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Baby baleen looks like toothbrushes. A 18’ grey this winter on Oregon beach

6406EE91-35E5-4914-85E6-A8FDDD36112E.jpeg
 
L

lom

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San Juan Is
All of this has made me more stoked on our rudder setup aboard SV Karma. Bring an early IOR design, the top 6" of the rudder are actually out of the water and we could, in theory, unbolt our tiller and get the entire rudder out without water entering the hull. The rudder post enters the hull above the waterline and inside we have another foot of glassed in tube before there is exposed stainless rudder post.

Learning of the steering compromises of separate rudder wind vane systems when a rudder is lost I wonder if the move is like 3 backup Pelagic Autopilots for the price of 1/2 windvane, then brackets on our transom to hang an emergency rudder if we whack it off. We can make one out of plywood before departing on any, say more than 400 miles offshore, passage and ditch it when in a new cruising grounds, it'd even work with the tiller autopilot. It'd just be a bigger San Juan 23 rudder, and the transom of our boat behind the actual rudder is even higher above the waterline we could do some serious damage before water continually pours in.

Picture is sorta a poor crop but just to show in the case I'm talking nonsense

IMG_20230323_143939.jpg
 
D

DDW

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lom said:
then brackets on our transom to hang an emergency rudder if we whack it off.
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I keep reading that this is the problem. I believe it, just from the experience of trying to line up the pintles and gudgeons on a tiny little 8' dinghy rudder in a very modest chop. Maybe with a lot of thought about the brackets and hinges, such that if you get them anywhere close they magically align themselves and snap together while being beaten by waves and wind.
 
L

lom

Member
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San Juan Is
DDW said:
I keep reading that this is the problem. I believe it, just from the experience of trying to line up the pintles and gudgeons on a tiny little 8' dinghy rudder in a very modest chop. Maybe with a lot of thought about the brackets and hinges, such that if you get them anywhere close they magically align themselves and snap together while being beaten by waves and wind.
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I do see what you're saying. We sailed a San Juan 23 or yeards with a transom hung rudder and I once sailed right over a kelp bed at 5tks in a bit of a blow that lifted the rudder out of its hook attachments and that was an interesting 15 minutes trying to get that back in.

I guess my point wasn't necessarily entirely the 'oh we can hang a rudder off the transom in a pinch' as much as for us to smack, break off, and damage the boat enough to take on water would be seriously significant as it's all above the waterline. Not to say that can't happen, we haven't done either the real nor synthetic whale test just yet.

But compared to a lot of more modern hulls with swim steps and such we could make a pretty dodgy and non floating 3/4ths sized transom hung rudder and carry that across an ocean ditch it when we arrive at our destination, and build a new one pretty easily. Even if it takes a day to get it clipped on in the event we need it. Most of the issue when we 'lost the rudder' on the San Juan was how boyant it was not that we were still moving and thrashing through waves in the straight.

Again though, we haven't done nor needed to do that. I'm not sure how hard or how much harder it would be to deploy than one of the emergency rudder ideas posted earlier. Just as a concept it's br pretty easy to carry, still use our autopilot, and carry backups for less than a separate rudder windvane, which according to this thread, has issues steering on fin keeled boats without the aft resistance of the pegged straight rudder.


Just trying to stay in the bounds of what is being discussed here! It's always interesting how there is continually a circumstance where a once good plan falls to pieces when sailing.
 
A

accnick

Super Anarchist
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lom said:
All of this has made me more stoked on our rudder setup aboard SV Karma. Bring an early IOR design, the top 6" of the rudder are actually out of the water and we could, in theory, unbolt our tiller and get the entire rudder out without water entering the hull. The rudder post enters the hull above the waterline and inside we have another foot of glassed in tube before there is exposed stainless rudder post.

Learning of the steering compromises of separate rudder wind vane systems when a rudder is lost I wonder if the move is like 3 backup Pelagic Autopilots for the price of 1/2 windvane, then brackets on our transom to hang an emergency rudder if we whack it off. We can make one out of plywood before departing on any, say more than 400 miles offshore, passage and ditch it when in a new cruising grounds, it'd even work with the tiller autopilot. It'd just be a bigger San Juan 23 rudder, and the transom of our boat behind the actual rudder is even higher above the waterline we could do some serious damage before water continually pours in.

Picture is sorta a poor crop but just to show in the case I'm talking nonsense

View attachment 581567
Click to expand...
The loads on a rudder blade and stock are really high. Something made of plywood is unlikely to be up to the task.
 
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L

lom

Member
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San Juan Is
accnick said:
The loads on a rudder blade and stock are really high. Something made of plywood is unlikely to be up to the task.
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Okay that is totally fair. Would be worth testing before loosing the boat's actual rudder. And glassing over wouldn't be the end of the world either for strength
 
El Borracho

El Borracho

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I have a rather fancy “PacCup Compliant” e-rudder that came with the boat. It was to be deployed by sliding down a T-track on the transom. I found it very difficult to test deploy while in a calm anchorage. Would be useless at sea. The instant the tip reaches water the rudder and stock become utterly uncontrollable. Being like a dinghy rudder, it is also completely unbalanced. With the short e-tiller I think it would be a weapon to be near while sailing. Laughably ineffective. It now decorates the tool shed ashore.

My thinking is that the cassette designs are the better solution. The cassette can be fitted before forces are encountered. The rudder has a chance at being balanced. However much more complicated to build.

Re whale encounters: With the possible exception of some irate Orca near Portugal, I don’t think the danger of whale damage, itself, rises to the statistical level necessary for special concern.
 
M

mckenzie.keith

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El Borracho said:
Re whale encounters: With the possible exception of some irate Orca near Portugal, I don’t think the danger of whale damage, itself, rises to the statistical level necessary for special concern.
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I guess you are right. Apart from the yacht-hating portuguese killer whales it seems that about 1 boat per decade is sinking in the Pacific due to whale collisions. J-world last decade and the KP this decade. Crash bulkheads can probably be considered to be a good thing. But as many have said, retrofitting them is not always possible. Especially aft.
 
Zonker

Zonker

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Cassette rudders are way better. Bolt a very nice solid chunky cassette to the transom above the waterline. It has the tiller attached either side of the cassette.

Then slide the rudder blade quickly in place. Instantly ready to use. No fighting.

And I disagree that a plywood blade can't work. It just have to be a very fat foil. Not a 3/4" blade that is a cabin door.
 
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