Loss of S/V Raindancer (KP44)

Panoramix

Super Anarchist
The loads on a rudder blade and stock are really high. Something made of plywood is unlikely to be up to the task.
Like for all vague engineering questions, the answer is "it depends"
Depends of boat top attainable speed, boat displacement, plywood thickness (you can laminate several ply together), rudder aspect, connection from blade to boat / tiller. If you have a thick plywood rudder heavily laminated with glass or even CF and held by a cassette type arrangement, I imagine you can steer a relatively big boat.
 

Jud - s/v Sputnik

Super Anarchist
7,346
2,377
Canada
I think ranch dressing is gross on everything. But some people love it.

Let’s stop dancing around the issue at hand and not mince words here. American “cuisine”, like the culture, is, by and large, barbaric and unrefined. (I personally consider mayonnaise on fries a step up from over sugared mass market Heinz-type ketchup - I like ketchup if it’s the real stuff, homemade-style, like real BBQ sauce, not the bullshit sugar/corn syrup junk from Kraft Chemical Corp.)

I wonder if the outcome of this dreadful whale encounter would’ve played out differently if ranch dressing wasn’t involved? Imagine, on a Spanish sailboat at the same moment, same location, same whale, instead of crap frozen pizza and ranch (!) dressing (BTW, t’s called “ranch” because no one really knows what the hell it’s made of, and to name it according to its actual ingredients —like “vinaigrette”, would repel consumers: the mystery name —and “ranch” sounds exotic to Americans, conjuring up the windswept frontier of possibilities and Big Sky, where Europe and its antiquated ways are far behind and anything is possible, including something called ranch dressing— is supposed to make it sound good. Ranch dressing is white, is the extent of my knowledge, and it’s likely thickened with guar gum and/or some corn-derived/synthesized product), they would have had a bottle of sherry (Jerez) or a basic Tempranillo red table wine out for a small tipple as a gustatory accompaniment to their lunch of jamón, goat cheese, olives, bread, and maybe leftover patatas bravas (with a bit of mayo: just a bit).

It could have gone very differently for them in that case. In short, we on the Internet wouldn’t be shaking our heads at the sordid ranch dressing situation, for there would’ve been none aboard.
 
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Elegua

Generalissimo
Let’s stop dancing around the issue at hand and not mince words here. American “cuisine” is, by and large, barbaric and unrefined. (I personally consider mayonnaise on fries a step up from over sugared mass market Heinz-type ketchup - I like ketchup if it’s the real stuff, homemade-style, like real BBQ sauce, not the bullshit sugar/corn syrup junk from Kraft Chemical Corp.)

I wonder if the outcome of this dreadful whale encounter would’ve played out differently if ranch dressing wasn’t involved? Imagine, on a Spanish sailboat at the same moment, same location, same whale, instead of crap frozen pizza and ranch (!) dressing (it’s called “ranch” because no one really knows what the hell it’s made of and to name it according to its actual ingredients would repel consumers: the mystery name —and “ranch” sounds exotic to Americans, conjuring up the windswept frontier of possibilities and Big Sky, where Europe and its antiquated ways are far behind and anything is possible, including something called ranch dressing— is supposed to make it sound good. Ranch dressing is white, is the extent of my knowledge, and it’s likely thickened with guar gum and/or some corn-derived/synthesized product), they would have had a bottle of sherry (Jerez) or a basic Tempranillo red table wine out for a small tipple as a gustatory accompaniment to their lunch of jamón, goat cheese, olives, bread, and maybe leftover patatas bravas (with a bit of mayo: just a bit).

It could have gone very differently for them in that case. In short, we on the Internet wouldn’t be shaking our heads at the sordid ranch dressing situation, for there would’ve been none aboard.
Hmmm… I think you‘ve been eating the cartoon version of American cuisine.

There’s a lot of crap processed food everywhere. Should I show you the aisle of pre-made sauces in the Super-U?
 

accnick

Super Anarchist
4,481
3,395
Like for all vague engineering questions, the answer is "it depends"
Depends of boat top attainable speed, boat displacement, plywood thickness (you can laminate several ply together), rudder aspect, connection from blade to boat / tiller. If you have a thick plywood rudder heavily laminated with glass or even CF and held by a cassette type arrangement, I imagine you can steer a relatively big boat.
Of course, but just cutting out a piece of plywood to the shape of a rudder and calling it a rudder isn't going to cut it.

This is akin to what people used to do to create an emergency steering system for offshore racing, where you put a couple of hose clamps through a plywood floorboard to attach it to a spinnaker pole, and called it an emergency rudder. That would almost never work if used in anger.

The rudder I designed and built for my last boat consisted of three layers of mahogany marine ply glued together, shaped into an airfoil, locally reinforced with carbon fiber, and heavily glassed over. Essentially, the plywood was the core, but it was also the primary structural member. This was an outboard rudder, so the rudder stock was integral to the blade.

That rudder steered a 15-ton boat for 40,000+ miles without incident. When I inspected it for the new owner a couple of years ago, there was no evidence of stress or wear.

But that's not what most people think about when they talk about a plywood rudder, at least in my experience.
 

DDW

Super Anarchist
7,142
1,554
Let’s stop dancing around the issue at hand and not mince words here. American “cuisine”, like the culture, is, by and large, barbaric and unrefined.
When you'all up there learn how to cook french fries, I'll start listening. Until then.... They can't even do them right back in Quebec. Also you need to repeal the laws requiring the murderous overcooking of hamburger. That and bull rails.
 

Jud - s/v Sputnik

Super Anarchist
7,346
2,377
Canada
Hmmm… I think you‘ve been eating the cartoon version of American cuisine.

There’s a lot of crap processed food everywhere. Should I show you the aisle of pre-made sauces in the Super-U?
True - but the world will never forget that America was the innovator, and is the continuing global hegemonic imperialist of fast food technology. And its last leader was an ardent proponent of the brand, channeling a groundswell of grassroots, red-blooded ‘murcan tastes to make it great again. It was a Godfather’s Pizza CEO who was almost chosen for a cabinet position recently. And who can forget 45’s purchase of hundreds of fast food burgers and fries as the celebratory White House dinner for a winning sports team invited to dine there? Or forget that infamous pic of 45 aboard the official presidential airplane, smiling amidst a resplendent display of KFC?

Ranch dressing is indicative of a much broader concern of prioritizing culinary efficiency over good scruples and taste. We would not be talking about this sinking but for ranch dressing. I don’t pretend to have all the answers about this sinking, and making direct correlations is tricky at best, but ranch dressing was definitely involved.
 
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Elegua

Generalissimo
True - but the world will never forget that America was the innovator, and is the continuing global hegemonic imperialist of fast food technology. And its last leader was an ardent proponent of the brand, channeling a groundswell of grassroots, red-blooded ‘murcan tastes to make it great again. It was a Dominos or Pizza Hut CEO who was almost chosen for a cabinet position recently. And who can forget 45’s purchase of hundreds of fast food burgers and fries as the celebratory White House dinner for a winning sports team invited to dine there? Or forget that infamous pic of 45 aboard the official presidential airplane, smiling amidst a resplendent display of KFC?

Ranch dressing is indicative of a much broader concern of prioritizing culinary efficiency over good scruples and taste. We would not be talking about this sinking but for ranch dressing. I don’t pretend to have all the answers about this sinking, and making direct correlations is tricky at best, but ranch dressing was definitely involved.
You sound like TL. Ok I take that back. My bad. Even in places like Taiwan/Japan/Korea there are processed food companies with over 80 years of history. That means there are before generations that have grown up with processed foods all on their own. It’s a people problem.
 
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Jud - s/v Sputnik

Super Anarchist
7,346
2,377
Canada
You sound like TL
Someone has to lead the progressive side here and be a voice of reason in the face of culinary neo-fascism.

Ranch dressing is a scourge, and can be prevented with adequate forethought. This whale-induced sinking should make everyone wake up and pay attention.

(I was in southern Spain just a short while ago, and am frankly not enjoying the return to what really is a way less refined and interesting culture. It’s North America - it is quite “barbaric” by comparison - but it does have its good points, for sure. However, food (and similar cultural pleasures of life) generally isn’t one of them, I’m starkly reminded.)

Just having a bit of fun. Now, who was responsible for bringing up ranch dressing here :) . Way more interesting than the other popular thread here, the boring and endless pile on at SV Seeker.
 
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mckenzie.keith

Aspiring Anarchist
2,366
1,083
Santa Cruz
You sound like TL. Ok I take that back. My bad. Even in places like Taiwan/Japan/Korea there are processed food companies with over 80 years of history. That means there are before generations that have grown up with processed foods all on their own. It’s a people problem.
Thank god for the food chemists at nongshim. And asian instant noodles in general.
 

Kris Cringle

Super Anarchist
3,919
3,837
"Ranch dressing is a scourge, and can be prevented with adequate forethought. This whale-induced sinking should make everyone wake up and pay attention."

Besides that a boat sunk, I have no idea what this thread is about. Ranch dressing has no relevance in a meaningful conversation.

I'm beginning to understand why Ajax fell on his sword.
 

Boats13

S/V Inevitable Liberty 458
811
24
Rio, Florida
Let’s stop dancing around the issue at hand and not mince words here. American “cuisine”, like the culture, is, by and large, barbaric and unrefined. (I personally consider mayonnaise on fries a step up from over sugared mass market Heinz-type ketchup - I like ketchup if it’s the real stuff, homemade-style, like real BBQ sauce, not the bullshit sugar/corn syrup junk from Kraft Chemical Corp.)

I wonder if the outcome of this dreadful whale encounter would’ve played out differently if ranch dressing wasn’t involved? Imagine, on a Spanish sailboat at the same moment, same location, same whale, instead of crap frozen pizza and ranch (!) dressing (BTW, t’s called “ranch” because no one really knows what the hell it’s made of, and to name it according to its actual ingredients —like “vinaigrette”, would repel consumers: the mystery name —and “ranch” sounds exotic to Americans, conjuring up the windswept frontier of possibilities and Big Sky, where Europe and its antiquated ways are far behind and anything is possible, including something called ranch dressing— is supposed to make it sound good. Ranch dressing is white, is the extent of my knowledge, and it’s likely thickened with guar gum and/or some corn-derived/synthesized product), they would have had a bottle of sherry (Jerez) or a basic Tempranillo red table wine out for a small tipple as a gustatory accompaniment to their lunch of jamón, goat cheese, olives, bread, and maybe leftover patatas bravas (with a bit of mayo: just a bit).

It could have gone very differently for them in that case. In short, we on the Internet wouldn’t be shaking our heads at the sordid ranch dressing situation, for there would’ve been none aboard.
The pizza was a "new homemade recipe", therefor your entire argument/ rant is null and void!
 

Dogscout

Member
394
366
On walkabout
It seems like a rudder that would break off leaving the boat in tact would be good. Then you could have a hydro vane for a substitute rudder to get you home. Seems like some of the reports of other incidents say that the boat lost the rudder and the boat sank. Probably because the rudder took out the whole rudder post and the hole sank the boat. Suggests also that the whole idea of a skeg that can rip a hole in a boat is maybe not such a great idea after all.
On my hanse, there is a riser around the rudder bushings that comes up above the waterline. Even if the rudder were to rope out shaft and all, the boat would not flood. That does not consider if the rudder is rammed and that whole mounting is torn from the boat though.

Do the other production boats have the riser?
 

Jud - s/v Sputnik

Super Anarchist
7,346
2,377
Canada
I have no idea what this thread is about. Ranch dressing has no relevance in a meaningful conversation.

I'm beginning to understand why Ajax fell on his sword.

It’s a hate-on for skegs, and about watertight bulkheads at bow and stern being probably the best way to survive cetacean encounters. But, at it’s also importantly about a former plumber named Steve.

DF512554-5C98-4235-BC77-DD8434A6DD30.jpeg
 
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Jim in Halifax

Super Anarchist
2,150
1,179
Nova Scotia
Also you need to repeal the laws requiring the murderous overcooking of hamburger.
I wish we could but ground beef is now mass produced in megaton batches in factories hundreds or thousands of miles from the point of consumption, giving e-coli and other nasties plenty of time to get a toe-hold and bloom in your raw burger. Only temperatures above 160 F will kill the blighters. The super scale industrialization of food production has resulted in more heinous crimes than ranch dressing...I long for the days when I would walk into a small butcher and order a pound of chuck, which would be ground fresh on demand. Then to go home and and grill a medium-rare burger... I used to travel a lot for work and have eaten in at least 30 different countries. Two of the best meals I ever ate were in New Orleans and New York, so some Americans definitely know how to make good food.
 

Elegua

Generalissimo
"Ranch dressing is a scourge, and can be prevented with adequate forethought. This whale-induced sinking should make everyone wake up and pay attention."

Besides that a boat sunk, I have no idea what this thread is about. Ranch dressing has no relevance in a meaningful conversation.

I'm beginning to understand why Ajax fell on his sword.
I heard whales hate Ranch Dressing. That's why they attacked.
 
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Diarmuid

Super Anarchist
4,088
2,226
Laramie, WY, USA
It’s a hate-on for skegs, and about watertight bulkheads at bow and stern being probably the best way to survive cetacean encounters.
I am about to start building a new full-skeg rudder for our boat, which may someday attempt a Pacific crossing. I had been planning to use ranch dressing as a fairing compound & antifouling, but this incident has really changed my approach.:oops: Now I am thinking of a rudder that can be drawn up into the hull structure for protection, like kung fu masters supposedly do with their scrotums. (Video possibly NSFW, or anywhere outside a Shaolin temple. The little side-eye at 1:10 is precious.)
 

Jud - s/v Sputnik

Super Anarchist
7,346
2,377
Canada
I am about to start building a new full-skeg rudder for our boat, which may someday attempt a Pacific crossing. I had been planning to use ranch dressing as a fairing compound & antifouling, but this incident has really changed my approach.:oops: Now I am thinking of a rudder that can be drawn up into the hull structure for protection, like kung fu masters supposedly do with their scrotums. (Video possibly NSFW, or anywhere outside a Shaolin temple. The little side-eye at 1:10 is precious.)
Speaking of that Shaolin retraction technique, Paul Bieker of Anacortes, Washington designed an excellent anti-whale technology that deserves mention here. Being the PNW, we’re scared here not only of errant humpbacks (many in inshore waters) but also deadheads (those waterlogged trees floating around). Handily solved by the Retract-A-Prop (TM)*. Shaolin-inspired! [emit karate chop sound]

Headed offshore where you’re worried about whales spoiling your ranch dressing pizza dipping sauce moments? Solved with a fin-looking tubercle rudder! Big Boy Megaptera novaeangliae will think you’re just a weird-shaped one of them, always swimming with a fin down, and they’ll look askance and keep their distance. Brilliant camouflage!

However, if you want to be WhaleSafe (TM)*, one of these Riptide 35’s will set you back a few hundred thou, so you’d better start saving! (Another key benefit of the Riptide 35 is that they’re crazy fast, so you can outrun any angry whales who may be pursuing you.)



*Satisfaction guaranteed. Offer not valid outside the Continental United States. Offer may vary. This product is known to the State of California to cause cancer. Offer not transferable. See label for details. Taxes may apply.

60D4EC75-B394-4A74-9AE3-3095E2D7D830.jpeg


8CA4AC61-2934-4471-8E09-BF16FFC1758A.jpeg
 
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Fah Kiew Tu

Curmudgeon, First Rank
11,481
4,277
Tasmania, Australia
Speaking of that Shaolin retraction technique, Paul Bieker of Anacortes designed an excellent anti-whale technology that deserves mention here. Being the PNW, we’re scared here not only of errant humpbacks (many in inshore waters) but also deadheads (those waterlogged trees floating around). Handily solved by the Retract-A-Prop (TM)*. Shaolin-inspired! [emit karate chop sound]

Funnily enough there was a crude version of this done decades ago. Written up in a UNESCO publication I made the mistake of lending to a friend of mine and he never returned it, the bastard.

Known as the BOB drive (short for Bay of Bengal), designed for lightweight fishing boats that landed on beaches etc and needed a retractable prop/shaft/rudder assembly and using a cheap single cylinder diesel agricultural engine, belts, water pipe and other stuff. I sort-of planned on building one at one stage just for fun.

FKT
 



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