Loss of S/V Raindancer (KP44)

[slug zitski]

For a cruiser/casual racer, why not a skeg hung rudder?

Doing a non scientific survey look at many newer boats and their corresponding designs, the skeg hung rudder is definitely not prevalent today. Why? Assuming well built and engineered, here is what one might think as to a skeg hung rudder's plusses, and minuses, am I missing anything else...

forums.sailinganarchy.com

You have a standard racer cruiser rudder

your only defense is a crash bulkhead and an emergency cassette rudder

smaller boats can use off the shelf cassette rudders from production builders

your would be custom

worthwhile if you need added endurance for long passages

 

[Arcot]

Or 2 small drogues.......haul o e oe other to change course
.
Perhaps part of JordN series drouge (20 cones)

 

[mckenzie.keith]

Or 2 small drogues.......haul o e oe other to change course
.
Perhaps part of JordN series drouge (20 cones)

If you lose your main rudder 1000 nautical miles or more from the nearest port, it is probably worthwhile to plan for a recovery where you don't have to hand steer by hauling on drogue lines for the remaining 1000 nautical miles. On a fully crewed race boat that is one thing. On a short handed cruising boat, that is not a pleasing prospect at all.

 

[tane]

why are transom hung rudders so unpopular on production boats above a certain size (say 27')? They seem to work ok on racers, should be cheaper than underslung spades & could be made to swing or slide up, severely reducing fouling on them & the annoying sailing at anchor, that so many modern boats with their fairly forward mast position are prone to.
(would disappoint the attacking orcas too, if it would be swung/pulled up out of their way)

 

[Zonker]

Because once you get to a certain size tillers don't have enough mechanical advantage. So you go to a wheel. Most cruising boats won't accept a very high aspect rudder that have low steering effort because they have a very narrow groove.

Sure you can add a hydraulic ram through a boot in the transom to turn an outboard rudder but most folks don't think it agrees with the swim platform.

If you lose your main rudder 1000 nautical miles or more from the nearest port, it is probably worthwhile to plan for a recovery where you don't have to hand steer by hauling on drogue lines for the remaining 1000 nautical miles. On a fully crewed race boat that is one thing. On a short handed cruising boat, that is not a pleasing prospect at all.

I dunno. If the choice was being really tired for a week by hand steering or so or losing my boat I think I'd try the drogues first. Wouldn't be fun at all. But maybe a good story at the bar in a month.

And of course you can just stop and heave to for 8 hours to catch up on sleep. My wife and I hand steered for 3 days straight, swapping shifts, when our autopilot died and we were motoring in flat calm conditions.

I think you could probably set it up so the boat was "somewhat stable" and just live with a bit of a zigzag course.

And it gives you time to rig a jury rudder

If I was crossing an ocean on a mono I would seriously think about an emergency rudder. Having lost one on our catamaran the boat was a bit squirelly but at least we had 50% rudder ability for 500 miles or so.

 

[mckenzie.keith]

If I was crossing an ocean on a mono I would seriously think about an emergency rudder. Having lost one on our catamaran the boat was a bit squirelly but at least we had 50% rudder ability for 500 miles or so.

That is my point. I think it would be prudent to have an emergency rudder rather than plan to steer using drogues on a long crossing. To me it seems the situation is more difficult and dire for a short-handed cruiser than it is for a racing crew. I think the emergency rudder and tiller needs to be pretty good.

That is my thinking right now. In my 20s I was on a long voyage ultimately sailing from California to Australia with one other person. We had no autopilot but did have a monitor windane. So any time we were motoring we were also hand-steering. It is certainly possible to hand steer a long way if need be, but the fatigue level of doing it with drogues seems like a lot. Of course better than giving up and activating the EPIRB. But if you are going to take the scenario seriously I think you might as well try to do a good job of it. Figure out how to make an emergency rudder that is usable and has a good chance of lasting for several days straight so you can get somewhere.

 

[slug zitski]

why are transom hung rudders so unpopular on production boats above a certain size (say 27')? They seem to work ok on racers, should be cheaper than underslung spades & could be made to swing or slide up, severely reducing fouling on them & the annoying sailing at anchor, that so many modern boats with their fairly forward mast position are prone to.
(would disappoint the attacking orcas too, if it would be swung/pulled up out of their way)

Inefficient and vulnerable

rudders, to be efficient need an endplate , typically the hull is the endplate

transom hung are best for small boats…shallow berth , trailer sailed or some special purpose

 

[accnick]

That is my point. I think it would be prudent to have an emergency rudder rather than plan to steer using drogues on a long crossing. To me it seems the situation is more difficult and dire for a short-handed cruiser than it is for a racing crew. I think the emergency rudder and tiller needs to be pretty good.

That is my thinking right now. In my 20s I was on a long voyage ultimately sailing from California to Australia with one other person. We had no autopilot but did have a monitor windane. So any time we were motoring we were also hand-steering. It is certainly possible to hand steer a long way if need be, but the fatigue level of doing it with drogues seems like a lot. Of course better than giving up and activating the EPIRB. But if you are going to take the scenario seriously I think you might as well try to do a good job of it. Figure out how to make an emergency rudder that is usable and has a good chance of lasting for several days straight so you can get somewhere.

This is one option from the folks who brought you the Monitor windvane:

SOS HP | scanmar

www.scanmarinternational.com

 

[slug zitski]

That is my point. I think it would be prudent to have an emergency rudder rather than plan to steer using drogues on a long crossing. To me it seems the situation is more difficult and dire for a short-handed cruiser than it is for a racing crew. I think the emergency rudder and tiller needs to be pretty good.

That is my thinking right now. In my 20s I was on a long voyage ultimately sailing from California to Australia with one other person. We had no autopilot but did have a monitor windane. So any time we were motoring we were also hand-steering. It is certainly possible to hand steer a long way if need be, but the fatigue level of doing it with drogues seems like a lot. Of course better than giving up and activating the EPIRB. But if you are going to take the scenario seriously I think you might as well try to do a good job of it. Figure out how to make an emergency rudder that is usable and has a good chance of lasting for several days straight so you can get somewhere.

A fin keel boat , minus its rudder will spin like a top on its keel

you need lateral resistance aft ….

a wind vane rudder is very small …better than nothing , but too small , to little lateral resistance, to keep the boat on track

the NA s tell me the emergency rudder blade needs to be 50 percent of the area or the original rudder in order to track successfully

 

[TheDragon]

That is my point. I think it would be prudent to have an emergency rudder rather than plan to steer using drogues on a long crossing. To me it seems the situation is more difficult and dire for a short-handed cruiser than it is for a racing crew. I think the emergency rudder and tiller needs to be pretty good.

That is my thinking right now. In my 20s I was on a long voyage ultimately sailing from California to Australia with one other person. We had no autopilot but did have a monitor windane. So any time we were motoring we were also hand-steering. It is certainly possible to hand steer a long way if need be, but the fatigue level of doing it with drogues seems like a lot. Of course better than giving up and activating the EPIRB. But if you are going to take the scenario seriously I think you might as well try to do a good job of it. Figure out how to make an emergency rudder that is usable and has a good chance of lasting for several days straight so you can get somewhere.

I tried pretty hard to think of redundancies and backups before I set off solo across the Pacific. An emergency rudder was simply too difficult to envision on my boat, which is a tiller-steered PSC34. My Pacific Windpilot windvane is a servo-pendulum system with a tiny "rudder" that would be useless. There is, however, the structure of the windvane bolted to the stern, but it would probably require destruction of the windvane itself to try to jury-rig some kind of rudder on that structure, and it would only be serviceable at low speeds in gentle conditions. So I just had to trust that an accident like theirs would not happen.

 

[low bum]

A lot of people by Hydrovanes because they're an automatic emergency tiller, but the Golden Globe has seen so many problems with it that seem to be (but are never ever confirmed to be) related to the mounts tearing out of the transoms with the expected results. Apparently the Windpilot guy has been warning about this for a while, with much backing and forthing.

 

[Zonker]

The people that run the Pacific Cup give some very good real world instructions on how to make and install an emergency rudder.

Emergency Rudder Design Guidelines | Pacific Cup

www.pacificcup.org

and

https://www.pacificcup.org/sites/default/files/kbfiles/rudder_1.pdf

and

Bill Lee on Alternate Steering Methods - No Rudder Needed? | Pacific Cup

www.pacificcup.org

 

[mckenzie.keith]

I tried pretty hard to think of redundancies and backups before I set off solo across the Pacific. An emergency rudder was simply too difficult to envision on my boat, which is a tiller-steered PSC34. My Pacific Windpilot windvane is a servo-pendulum system with a tiny "rudder" that would be useless. There is, however, the structure of the windvane bolted to the stern, but it would probably require destruction of the windvane itself to try to jury-rig some kind of rudder on that structure, and it would only be serviceable at low speeds in gentle conditions. So I just had to trust that an accident like theirs would not happen.

Yeah. I would probably come to the same conclusion in a Crealock 34. And, lets just take note that an emergency rudder would not have helped the KP44. In fact, for all I know, they may have had an emergency rudder. I didn't have one on my Freya 39, but that boat has a keel mounted rudder.

 

[tane]

Inefficient and vulnerable

rudders, to be efficient need an endplate , typically the hull is the endplate

transom hung are best for small boats…shallow berth , trailer sailed or some special purpose

small boats like Open 60s?

 

[slug zitski]

small boats like Open 60s?

They have endplates

do you know what an endplate is

 

[estarzinger]

That is my point. I think it would be prudent to have an emergency rudder rather than plan to steer using drogues on a long crossing. To me it seems the situation is more difficult and dire for a short-handed cruiser than it is for a racing crew. I think the emergency rudder and tiller needs to be pretty good.

It is certainly possible to hand steer a long way if need be, but the fatigue level of doing it with drogues seems like a lot. Of course better than giving up and activating the EPIRB. But if you are going to take the scenario seriously I think you might as well try to do a good job of it. Figure out how to make an emergency rudder that is usable and has a good chance of lasting for several days straight so you can get somewhere.

some quick comments:

(1) I think as you look into it you will find building a 'proper' emergency rudder for a boat the size of your new one is perhaps a more significant project than you expect - in design, construction, stowage and installation/execution in a seaway. Rudder loads on a rudder big enough to provide real steering are pretty high and the rudder blade itself needs to be pretty big. And hanging over the transom in a seaway to install the cassette and then blade . . . . . However if the boat's regular rudder is already a cassette system it is more practically feasible.

(2) we have friends who sailed 1200 miles in the (pacific) southern ocean after having ice break off their rudder. They said it was just a matter of patience (to be going slowly on a wandering course), not actually that hard. They used a number of different steering rigs - the drogues worked well, but he eventually build an actual transom steering rudder (but he was a master boat builder). Practically speaking you have to be patient enough (and have enough stores) to go 1/2 speed or probably even slower.

I examined all these sorts of topics when we built hawk. My conclusions were:

(a) make the primary main rudder as near bulletproof as possible (we increased the diameter of the shaft). It is not all that hard to build a near indestructible rudder (either in carbon or in aluminum). We 'tested' ours twice - hitting a granite ledge at speed in Maine and bouncing up and down on it for a while on rocks in iceland. It got dinged a bit but was still sound and functioning. I eventually replaced it just for 'peace of mind' with a 'fresh one' down in chile when I found a very skilled metal yard at great prices. I suspect a whale would not have been able to break our rudder, but ofc don't really know.

(b) you then need to make sure if you hit the rudder hard it does not break the hull. This again seemed relatively easy - reinforcement and gussets and tube to well above the water line that can be sealed if the rudder post did somehow drop out. You probably need to reinforce an area aft to where the aft tip of the top of the blade might be driven up into the hull if the shaft is flexed back enough. We got a little ding in our aluminum plating there when we hit the ledge - np, just needed filled/fair it with epoxy filler. And we did bulkheads, but that is easier done on a new build than an existing boat.

(c) one thing I found when we bounced the rudder in iceland, and it got jammed at a like 5 degrees steering angle, was that none of the emergency steering systems work well enough to overcome a jammed rudder at an angle (we had a pacific plus with a quite large aux rudder and it was not able at all to overcome the main rudder trim). So it was essential to have the tools to free the rudder - in our case this took a small hydraulic jack I had on board to push it down.

I mentioned previously van de stadt's recommendation for a 'crumple zone' on the bottom 20% of the rudder blade - a bit like a car bumper, to absorb shocks and hopefully mitigate how much is transmitted to the shaft and hull. Their design made the upper 80% of the rudder as a sealed unit designed to steer well, and the bottom 20% as essentially a 'crash box' which would could be cleaned off to the 80% mark if necessary and then replaced. interesting idea, but I did not do it, just made the whole thing bulletproof.

 

[DDW]

We built my rudder with the bottom third just carbon skins and foam. The rudder post ends at ~2/3 depth. It is still quite strong, but a lot less strong than where the rudder post extends. With the idea that it could get broken off or crushed and leave the boat steerable. In a lateral load I think this is workable, straight up load from a rock or a whale, the bearings are no doubt the weak point. It is harder to make the bearings take a very large thrust load, than make the blade strong enough, or build a sacrificial tip.

 

[Arcot]

We met a couple last year in Lund, who on attempting to sail from Mexico to BC experienced rudder failure before reaching Hawaii.

Aluminum Colvin design perhaps 50 feet.

Wonderful seamanship sailing without a rudder from perhaps 20 degrees north to BC arriving in October.

 

[phillysailor]

As a purely hypothetical question: could a boat with a spade rudder wanting an easily deployable emergency rudder have a centerboard slot somewhere in the aft region with a simple blade to provide sufficient lateral resistance to facilitate much improved ability to steer using sail trim?

It seems to me many of the most challenging aspects of emergency rudders is setting it up in the conditions that would have damaged the original rudder in the first place.

You'd still have to store the damn thing, though.

 

[mckenzie.keith]

As a purely hypothetical question: could a boat with a spade rudder wanting an easily deployable emergency rudder have a centerboard slot somewhere in the aft region with a simple blade to provide sufficient lateral resistance to facilitate much improved ability to steer using sail trim?

It seems to me many of the most challenging aspects of emergency rudders is setting it up in the conditions that would have damaged the original rudder in the first place.

You'd still have to store the damn thing, though.

I feel that the effort to do that will only be slightly less (if at all) than doing a rudder. But it is an interesting idea. If you can drop a centerboard through a trunk, you can just as easily drop a rudder and attach a tiller to the top of it.