Lot of critics, but when should shutdown be lifted?

RobG

Super Anarchist
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Those who make the decision are weighing the rights of some number of the uninfected to their right to life and the pursuit of happiness against the rights of others to liberty of some sort. It seems to me the right to health, not dying, has always exceeded most other rights.
Absolutely correct. What you're describing is setting a course of action for the greatest common good and taking responsibility for the outcome.

However, in some places, this has turned into a partisan political issue and no side trusts any other to have the common good at heart. There are also political leaders who are incapable of expressing sympathy or taking personal responsibility for anything. Dr Fauci set an excellent example in his interview, where he said, more or less "I did the best I could in the circumstances. In hindsight, could I have done better? Probably, but who can't say that after the fact".

Even if the most perfect plan is brought forth, from anyone, at least half the population will see it as favouring the other half and will relentlessly howl it down. They simply don't trust that leaders have the greatest common good as their guiding principle. It's even worse when those leaders will not take responsibility for their actions, because it means they believe there will be no consequence of favouring their supporters and so are not motivated to act in good faith for the majority.

 

jack_sparrow

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Some in lock-down in the US are just getting blind drunk to remain sane while watching POTUS Pressers.




 

jack_sparrow

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2) if I get sick I get flown to the WH and Capitol Hill for a one on one meet and greet session with the folks who are pushing to go back to pre-quarantine and distancing rules. 
Miff being sick they probably won't frisk you to see if your carrying. Maybe even change your name to John Wilkes Booth to cover your tracks after??

 
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Miffy

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Miff being sick they probably won't frisk you to see if your carrying. Maybe even change your name to John Wilkes Booth to cover your tracks after??
No I’m not an assassin- I just believe in collective good should be reciprocal. 
 

some dipshit who can’t take a vacation but lives on a monthly budget that’s eye watering should have as much skin in the game as the bus driver or nurse or school teacher. 
 

every press conference I’ve seen shows someone cares more about ratings than the actual responsibility of the office. And the morons who continue to push for him or excuse his bad behavior? They’re making this country the saddest it has ever been. 

 
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Tell ya what.

first in, best dressed....

Open up the good ole USA,

We will, as a matter of safety for our entire population, keep the Canadian border closed tighter then a fucking tick.

That way, we can watch you for about four weeks, and see how it goes.

Then we will let ya know, if you got it right....

 

RobG

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Some of the "old people" who've gone to work to help out the overworked youngsters probably should have stayed at home: 

Man accidentally ejects himself from fighter jet during surprise flight
"Sixty-four-year-old lands in field after grabbing ejection handle to steady himself"

The article reads like it was lifted straight out of the Darwin awards.

2685.jpg

Dassault Rafale B

 
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Tell ya what.

first in, best dressed....

Open up the good ole USA,

We will, as a matter of safety for our entire population, keep the Canadian border closed tighter then a fucking tick.

That way, we can watch you for about four weeks, and see how it goes.

Then we will let ya know, if you got it right....
How did that approach work out for the Native Americans? Pretty good, kept out all those old world diseases... right up until 1492

 

Not My Real Name

Not Actually Me
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Depends on where you get your news from - The FOX channels it's all about ASAP, you know to save the economy.  In reality it will be decided by states and localities just as was the lockdown/stay home decisions -
Ima take a wild stab at where AMS gets his news...

 

inneedofadvice

Super Anarchist
1,452
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Sarnia
Almost 600,000 confirmed cases and just under 3 million tests done. Until you can do likely about 3 million tests a day it is economic suicide to open again. And tests that work in 15 minutes.  Every health care worker, cop, firefighter needs daily testing. Businesses will need to test employees at least biweekly if not daily. Think not? What happens when you have a confirmed case that’s been walking around infecting others for a week ?  Shut down company,  everyone in quarantine. That’s expensive. 

 
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What happens when you have a confirmed case that’s been walking around infecting others for a week ?  Shut down company,  everyone in quarantine. That’s expensive. 
Not nearly as expensive as shutting down the 3rd largest country in the world indefinitely... Besides, you don’t shut down the whole company, you only quarantine those directly exposed.  That’s what the “essential” businesses are doing now.

 
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Oops 3 million isn’t enough to test public servants, l meant 30 million. A day. Maybe more. 
That is just is not going  to be possible, the scale doesn’t exist and will not with present testing technology.  And to get to that level of industrial and testing capacity you would need to open the economy up... chicken and egg, etc

 

zenmasterfred

Super Anarchist
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Lopez Island
Go ahead on her laddy and those of us of a certain age will watch and see how you fare in the lion pit.  I'm w/ my good neighbor to the north Keith, I will just stay close to the border until I can cross into Oh Canada and watch the carnage from opening her up and letting her buck.

 

jack_sparrow

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Spain with probably toughest Euro lock-down the first to ease. Only things like construction and manufacturing, allowed with "distancing" restart this week. Their national lockdown started a month ago.

Spain partially loosens lockdown as coronavirus death rate slows

Total Confirmed Cases per capita and Daily New Confirmed Cases (rolling 7 day average) gives a better picture showing their daily new cases peaked around a fortnight ago.

IMG_20200414_143944.jpg

IMG_20200414_145321.jpg

 
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Gissie

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Posted this link on another thread. This is the sort of numbers and modelling that I would hope is being done by our government. Not as a simple answer, but as an aid for taking the first step back to normality.

https://nzinitiative.org.nz/reports-and-media/reports/research-note-quantifying-the-wellbeing-costs-of-covid-19/

There is certainly not going to be any magic time to ease up. Any decision is going to cost lives, the idea will be to minimise. Minimise the damage to life and economy both short term and over the coming decades.

As a disclaimer, the site is a business oriented one and as such may be unacceptable to some. I am happy to listen to them at least and do hope our government is doing the same sort of work without any bias.

 

Wess

Super Anarchist
Per the CDC flu took 80,000 American in 2018 (it was a bad year).  We likely lose far fewer to covid but now have 17 million unemployed in the US thanks to the shut-downs.  And its mostly the  middle class and working poor that are being hurt not those of us owning yachts posting here.  I am all for flattening the curve and mitigation even in the face of a lot of uncertainty about the virus but if we are going to destroy the livelihood of so many people (its not just unemployment that is up so are suicides, rent and mortgage payment failures, etc...) don't we have an obligation to make these people whole again?  Its not like you can use an argument that they are lazy or stupid.  People - millions of people - have lost their income and are going to lose their homes etc... through no fault of their own.  Simply because government suddenly said you no longer had the right to work, assemble, worship, travel... its kinda unprecedented.  For a lot of folks this ain't about a selfish "I want to go sail or party" urge... its a "I don't want to lose my house, my apartment, my business, my job." It ain't as black and white as y'all make it out to be.  I am likely biased - had my thinking on this reopened recently - because the roll of the dice is such that while I don't personally know anyone to die of covid-19 I do know somebody who committed suicide over (what was going to end up being) the loss of his business.  Left a wife and kid and know he was thinking the life insurance would help them.  There ain't no winners either way in this mess.  Just pain all around unless you happen to be fortunate enough to be either wealthy or can work from home in an unaffected business.  Just makes me sad and WTF I am posting this here for I have no clue.  I must be drunk but that's a bad sign at 0520.

Co-vid Deaths by Region:

image.png  

 
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Sail4beer

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Toms River,NJ
Lost a friend to the flu last year. He was in his 40’s but not very good physical condition. 
 

A few people and myself that have had Covid didn’t feel too bad, but for the sake of everyone around, we have sheltered in place since March 12th. It’s like Groundhog Day, but my 88 year old Dad finally gets that it’s either stuck at home or in the ground... 

NJ has a lot of cases in our county-nobody I know has been hospitalized, but a friend’s grandmother died from it last week and brother has 4 out of 5 female friends that skied in the Alps in early February dead from Covid.

 

RobG

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…its not just unemployment that is up so are suicides,…
Link? Lots of speculation, but no numbers yet as far as I can see. Suicide rates have been rising the US for the last 20 years. Where are the numbers and analysis showing the Covid-19 lockdown has caused an increase? 

80,000 per year is about 220 per day. Currently Covid-19 is killing 1,500 US citizens per day. Reducing it to around 250 per day (90,000 pa) will be seen as victory by some.

BTW, the estimate of 80,000 flu deaths for winter 2018/19 was an extreme case that had already raised concerns. The number of flu deaths is typically 12,000 to 56,000. So Covid-19 is worse than even a severe flu season, even with the extreme measures that have been taken to stop its spread.

 
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jack_sparrow

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Link? Lots of speculation, but no numbers yet as far as I can see. Suicide rates have been rising the US for the last 20 years. Where are the numbers and analysis showing the Covid-19 lockdown has caused an increase? 

80,000 per year is about 220 per day. Currently Covid-19 is killing 1,500 US citizens per day. Reducing it to around 250 per day (90,000 pa) will be seen as victory by some.
Rob this may help.


 
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