Low stretch halyards?

Thorvald

Member
405
0
Puget Sound
I was thinking it might be a good idea to replace my old rope to wire type halyards with all rope. I discovered that since getting a new/used tape drive sail that the 12 feet or so of double braid from the mast back to the cockpit stretches a surprising amount. So I'm thinking maybe some XLS extra T in 7/16" would be a good choice. Stretches only .5 % at 10% of breaking strength. Hard to find anything much better unless its Warpspeed or something like it. So I'm calculating how much the approximately 45 feet of halyard will stretch if I apply 450# of halyard tension which seems like a reasonable number to me. 2 1/2 inches! WTF!! The sailmakers talk about only stretching a mylar type sail with a 38/40 foot luff about 1 1/2 inches. Am I missing something here?How do you control your sail shape when the halyard stretches that much? I'm thinking the old rope to wire with the winch on the mast and the wire coming almost to the winch was not a bad system. Sure you can use the rope if you don't mind it stretching 3 times as much as the wire. I'd like to hear what others have done or tell me what I'm missing please!

 

Overbored

Anarchist
711
59
So. Cal
7/16" is a bit large even for XLS. If you are using a dynnema core line most use 5/16" or 3/8" on a 40' luff and the cover can be striped off for half the length. also if replacing wire you need to make sure the sheeves at the mast head are wide enough to use the larger line or they will need to be changed.

 

savoir

Super Anarchist
4,907
195
The best cheap halyard rope is VPC. For anything that stretches even less be prepared to pay. 3/8" VPC should do fine.

 

BHowett

Member
214
0
UK
also if replacing wire you need to make sure the sheeves at the mast head are wide enough to use the larger line or they will need to be changed.
Dont forget that bit - a lot of people do.

Wire and rope sheaves are different shapes and while its not an expensive job to swap them out: it needs to be done to maximise the lifespan of your new halyard.

 

IrieMon

Super Anarchist
2,087
61
Interesting specs.. I use XLS for my jib halyard (35' luff) which replaced a wire/rope halyard. Never seen anywhere near that much stretch and I use a 155 genoa. No regrets.

 

Mysanne Throhppe

Super Anarchist
1,321
0
I'd use Warpspeed or just plain ol' nekkid Amsteel before I went with XLS, and the reason why is that in my experience the cover just slides all over the place with XLSxT. I'm not using as a halyard, but as a jibsheet, fwiw. I'll never buy that crap again.

 

Callahan

Anarchist
763
40
I have a 40.5' luff on my jib. 8MM VPC works great and that is with a kevlar headsail which doesn't stretch much. 10MM VPC for main halyard.If you use 10MM for a jib halyard you won't see much stretch at all with your jib. VPC is a good compromise. Now if you really worried about stretch you could go with 8MM V-100. Just expect to pay a lot of money for it. Wash your VPC before putting it up because it is a little slippery when new. I also tied my halyards to a telephone pole and pre-stretched them with a car bumper (be careful you don't pull your bumper off).

 

Thorvald

Member
405
0
Puget Sound
That .5% total stretch measurement is taken starting with an unloaded line. Most of the stretch you take out if it with normal halyard tension.
That's just it. You want a halyard that'l go from zero (speed wrinkles) to max, whatever max is, without just stretching the halyard. I picked 450 lbs. because it seemed like a number that the crew could apply with the #8 winch and also because it happened to be about 10% of the strength of the 3/8 XLSxT I was factoring in originally. ( Not the 7/16 like I said in the tread starter) What I don't know is does the rope get pre-stretched with a little usage to where you don't have that initial .5% anymore? Sorry to hear That the XLSxT is crap since I just bought some for my genoa sheets! We'll see. As for VPC 3/8" is 6500 lb. but the stretch is 1.25% at 10% of tensile strength. Doesn't sound that good to me unless that pre-stretching thing factors in.

Just for little comparison, from the Loos wire site the stretch of 7/19 ss wire is E=(WxG)/d squared. Where E is the % of stretch W is load and G is a given factor per the type of wire. In this case .0000162 for 7x19ss. 1/4 Warpspeed is 5100 lbs. 7/32" 7/19 is 5200 lbs., so a pretty close comparison. 40' of the Warpspeed stretches 2.11" at 510 lbs. The 7x19 stretches .82". Not quite 3 times but darn close. Of course the Warpspeed weighs .84 lbs and the wire weighs something in the neighborhood of 5 lbs.

 

belandm

Super Anarchist
1,504
0
Everett, WA
That .5% total stretch measurement is taken starting with an unloaded line. Most of the stretch you take out if it with normal halyard tension.
That's just it. You want a halyard that'l go from zero (speed wrinkles) to max, whatever max is, without just stretching the halyard. I picked 450 lbs. because it seemed like a number that the crew could apply with the #8 winch and also because it happened to be about 10% of the strength of the 3/8 XLSxT I was factoring in originally. ( Not the 7/16 like I said in the tread starter) What I don't know is does the rope get pre-stretched with a little usage to where you don't have that initial .5% anymore? Sorry to hear That the XLSxT is crap since I just bought some for my genoa sheets! We'll see. As for VPC 3/8" is 6500 lb. but the stretch is 1.25% at 10% of tensile strength. Doesn't sound that good to me unless that pre-stretching thing factors in.

Just for little comparison, from the Loos wire site the stretch of 7/19 ss wire is E=(WxG)/d squared. Where E is the % of stretch W is load and G is a given factor per the type of wire. In this case .0000162 for 7x19ss. 1/4 Warpspeed is 5100 lbs. 7/32" 7/19 is 5200 lbs., so a pretty close comparison. 40' of the Warpspeed stretches 2.11" at 510 lbs. The 7x19 stretches .82". Not quite 3 times but darn close. Of course the Warpspeed weighs .84 lbs and the wire weighs something in the neighborhood of 5 lbs.
I don't agree. Yes, you get a little bit more stretch out of VPC than XLSxT or other lines, but unless you're a Volvo class racer you'll never notice a difference. Load up the halyard, make it tight, come back and try to take another few clicks out of it on the winch a few minutes later. The same with an XLSxT line. I'll bet you next month's mortgage payment that you won't be able to tell a difference in the set of the sail. Is there a theoretical difference, sure, but this is reminding me of the bicycle racing guys that shave their legs to be more aerodynamic - at the velocities and pressures we're talking about it just isn't going to matter.

Also, just as a side note, when did low-stretch line become a popular idea for sheets? Halyards, yes, I get where it comes from and I don't want to use a bungie cord or anything, but sheets? I'd rather the sheet stretch slightly under a shock load than transmit it to the gear.

 

Schnick

Super Anarchist
2,625
68
Vancouver, BC
For halyards, I have tried a few different ways and I think the best trade off of low stretch vs. low price comes from splicing together half the length in regular Amsteel and the other half in cheap doublebraid dacron, just like the old wire halyards but with amsteel in place of the wire. Get about 5' of extra in the double braid, splice the core of the dacron to the amsteel, then overlap the cover over 5' of the amsteel. Get the lengths right so that with the sail at full hoist the clutch or cleat is seeing amsteel plus cover. This gets you a much higher performance halyard than XLS or VPS, you don't waste money on the tail that never really sees load, and you get to handle a nice soft double braid in the cockpit. All of my jib halyards are built this way and they work great. The bare amsteel does pretty well with chafe, for a single braid.

 

beauvrolyk

Super Anarchist
We use Warpspeed, but do insure that the correct sized line (based upon the strength) will actually work in your halyard winch if you have a self tailing winch. The new lines allow you to go to a MUCH smaller line and some folks are surprised by the fact that they don't have functioning self tailer any more.

BV

 

Tucky

Super Anarchist
3,497
22
Maine
We use Warpspeed, but do insure that the correct sized line (based upon the strength) will actually work in your halyard winch if you have a self tailing winch. The new lines allow you to go to a MUCH smaller line and some folks are surprised by the fact that they don't have functioning self tailer any more.

BV
Clutches have the same problem, though it is generally easier to fix with a cam designed for the smaller diameter. I use 5/16 Yale crystalyne on my 42.5 mast. It is vectran cored, and I strip it. Next time I'll go with a spectra/dyneema core as it is better with UV. The core must be 3/16 to 1/4 and strength is in the 9,500 lbs range- my boat weighs 4,500 lbs thought the righting moment is a bit higher
rolleyes.gif


+1 on checking the sheaves.

 

Mysanne Throhppe

Super Anarchist
1,321
0
Also, just as a side note, when did low-stretch line become a popular idea for sheets?
for my part, I just got whatever weight the least and was good line that was locally available. That happened to be at West Marine, and also happened to be the XLS T.

Also, my boat is a multihull, the sheet in question for the blade jib I only beat with, so I want that mutha ground flat. Now for my screacher or chute that's a dif story but I still don't want very stretchy line. Weight is, though, the primary factor.

 

Thorvald

Member
405
0
Puget Sound
For halyards, I have tried a few different ways and I think the best trade off of low stretch vs. low price comes from splicing together half the length in regular Amsteel and the other half in cheap doublebraid dacron, just like the old wire halyards but with amsteel in place of the wire. Get about 5' of extra in the double braid, splice the core of the dacron to the amsteel, then overlap the cover over 5' of the amsteel. Get the lengths right so that with the sail at full hoist the clutch or cleat is seeing amsteel plus cover. This gets you a much higher performance halyard than XLS or VPS, you don't waste money on the tail that never really sees load, and you get to handle a nice soft double braid in the cockpit. All of my jib halyards are built this way and they work great. The bare amsteel does pretty well with chafe, for a single braid.
I like that idea alot. I guess you just learn to work with the small amount of stretch that the line does have. Also I notice that the stretch from 10% to 20% is alot less than from 0-10%. The thing that got me on this subject is that some of the sail trimming guides suggest marking the halyard right at the point where the wrinkles are gone and the 1 1/2" either side of that mark. So I'm thinking how does that work if you're applying something in the neighborhood of 10% to get to the last mark. Seems like you'd have to stretch the halyard a couple inches first before you got much tension on the sail. 1/4" Amsteel would probably do a fine job with a tail of LS.

 

paps49

Super Anarchist
8,930
308
Adelaide Australia
For halyards, I have tried a few different ways and I think the best trade off of low stretch vs. low price comes from splicing together half the length in regular Amsteel and the other half in cheap doublebraid dacron, just like the old wire halyards but with amsteel in place of the wire. Get about 5' of extra in the double braid, splice the core of the dacron to the amsteel, then overlap the cover over 5' of the amsteel. Get the lengths right so that with the sail at full hoist the clutch or cleat is seeing amsteel plus cover. This gets you a much higher performance halyard than XLS or VPS, you don't waste money on the tail that never really sees load, and you get to handle a nice soft double braid in the cockpit. All of my jib halyards are built this way and they work great. The bare amsteel does pretty well with chafe, for a single braid.
I like that idea alot. I guess you just learn to work with the small amount of stretch that the line does have. Also I notice that the stretch from 10% to 20% is alot less than from 0-10%. The thing that got me on this subject is that some of the sail trimming guides suggest marking the halyard right at the point where the wrinkles are gone and the 1 1/2" either side of that mark. So I'm thinking how does that work if you're applying something in the neighborhood of 10% to get to the last mark. Seems like you'd have to stretch the halyard a couple inches first before you got much tension on the sail. 1/4" Amsteel would probably do a fine job with a tail of LS.
Funny, I was just thinking about this the other day. It would seem to me that the new synthetic fiber running lines would be much more user friendly with soft tails a la wire halyards for the same purpose. And Tor you are introducing racing elements ie "To get to the last mark" in a crewsing forum, surely you appreciate we "crewsers" never "race" tut tut, old boy.

 

savoir

Super Anarchist
4,907
195
That .5% total stretch measurement is taken starting with an unloaded line. Most of the stretch you take out if it with normal halyard tension.
That's just it. You want a halyard that'l go from zero (speed wrinkles) to max, whatever max is, without just stretching the halyard. I picked 450 lbs. because it seemed like a number that the crew could apply with the #8 winch and also because it happened to be about 10% of the strength of the 3/8 XLSxT I was factoring in originally. ( Not the 7/16 like I said in the tread starter) What I don't know is does the rope get pre-stretched with a little usage to where you don't have that initial .5% anymore? Sorry to hear That the XLSxT is crap since I just bought some for my genoa sheets! We'll see. As for VPC 3/8" is 6500 lb. but the stretch is 1.25% at 10% of tensile strength. Doesn't sound that good to me unless that pre-stretching thing factors in.

Just for little comparison, from the Loos wire site the stretch of 7/19 ss wire is E=(WxG)/d squared. Where E is the % of stretch W is load and G is a given factor per the type of wire. In this case .0000162 for 7x19ss. 1/4 Warpspeed is 5100 lbs. 7/32" 7/19 is 5200 lbs., so a pretty close comparison. 40' of the Warpspeed stretches 2.11" at 510 lbs. The 7x19 stretches .82". Not quite 3 times but darn close. Of course the Warpspeed weighs .84 lbs and the wire weighs something in the neighborhood of 5 lbs.
I don't agree. Yes, you get a little bit more stretch out of VPC than XLSxT or other lines, but unless you're a Volvo class racer you'll never notice a difference. Load up the halyard, make it tight, come back and try to take another few clicks out of it on the winch a few minutes later. The same with an XLSxT line. I'll bet you next month's mortgage payment that you won't be able to tell a difference in the set of the sail. Is there a theoretical difference, sure, but this is reminding me of the bicycle racing guys that shave their legs to be more aerodynamic - at the velocities and pressures we're talking about it just isn't going to matter.

Also, just as a side note, when did low-stretch line become a popular idea for sheets? Halyards, yes, I get where it comes from and I don't want to use a bungie cord or anything, but sheets? I'd rather the sheet stretch slightly under a shock load than transmit it to the gear.
High tech jib sheets drive me kerrayzeeee !

When you are out in uneven seas and wind the sheet is constantly loading and unloading as the boat rolls. Every time a high tech sheet lads it gives naut and snaps taut KERRRACK ! KERRRRACK ! KERRACK!

I had to change sheets just so I could sleep. Sta set does me fine but there are plenty of others just as good. You want a little give. So do the winch bearings.

 

Thorvald

Member
405
0
Puget Sound
For halyards, I have tried a few different ways and I think the best trade off of low stretch vs. low price comes from splicing together half the length in regular Amsteel and the other half in cheap doublebraid dacron, just like the old wire halyards but with amsteel in place of the wire. Get about 5' of extra in the double braid, splice the core of the dacron to the amsteel, then overlap the cover over 5' of the amsteel. Get the lengths right so that with the sail at full hoist the clutch or cleat is seeing amsteel plus cover. This gets you a much higher performance halyard than XLS or VPS, you don't waste money on the tail that never really sees load, and you get to handle a nice soft double braid in the cockpit. All of my jib halyards are built this way and they work great. The bare amsteel does pretty well with chafe, for a single braid.
I like that idea alot. I guess you just learn to work with the small amount of stretch that the line does have. Also I notice that the stretch from 10% to 20% is alot less than from 0-10%. The thing that got me on this subject is that some of the sail trimming guides suggest marking the halyard right at the point where the wrinkles are gone and the 1 1/2" either side of that mark. So I'm thinking how does that work if you're applying something in the neighborhood of 10% to get to the last mark. Seems like you'd have to stretch the halyard a couple inches first before you got much tension on the sail. 1/4" Amsteel would probably do a fine job with a tail of LS.
Funny, I was just thinking about this the other day. It would seem to me that the new synthetic fiber running lines would be much more user friendly with soft tails a la wire halyards for the same purpose. And Tor you are introducing racing elements ie "To get to the last mark" in a crewsing forum, surely you appreciate we "crewsers" never "race" tut tut, old boy.
Guilty as charged. You're right about the user friendlyness factor. Also the new stuff weighs a fraction of what wire weighs and there's not that splice to worry about. I admit I love the club races and the occasional local inter yacht club race. Just bought a new/used UK mylar/kevlar Tape Drive genoa with carbon fiber tapes. $375! and it sets beautifully. So I'm trying to get the rest of the ancient sheets, halyards etc. up to snuff. Changed the sheets to XLSxT and am using soft shackles to attach them. Huge difference! Tacking is much smoother with the smaller diameter sheets and no bowlines to drag past the shrouds. Also I love delving into the technical aspects of the materials, but I'm not the only one. Just look at BV's hanks thread.So we cruisers benefit from all this racer crap. When my old Garden yawl was in the water I raced it every chance I got. Mostly against the plastic boats. Did OK too.

 
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