LR vs AR penalty

5X-MOANA

Member
212
8
SF no more
Can someone explain this step by step?

http://noticeboard.americascup.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/SF4-1-pen-ART.iPad_.mp4

Capture.PNG

 

onefatkiwi

New member
19
0
Bermuda
The penalty was a joke - this is the factual evidence - I was on the water listening to the radios:

1. whether Artemis were at fault is dubious at best

2. The umpires penalised Artemis 25 s before the start

3. It was supposed to be a VMG penalty

4. the umpire in the booth was not accustomed with the buttons so fucked up on pressing the buttons to indicate a vmg penalty

- Umpire Mike Martin who would normally press the buttons was awol (apparently with the band "red hot chilli powders " in a rib on the water)

5. The woman replacing Mike Martin in the booth fucked up by not knowing the button sequence - after pressing the SWE penalty button you then have to press either the VMG button (as in this case) or the boat on boat bot penalty button)

6. in a panic she pressed the SWE penalty button and then realised that nothing had happened so instead of pressing the VMG button pressed the SWE button again which completely cleared the penalty.

7. It was a total fuck up - the penalty was supposed to be a vmg penalty which would have penalised Artemis by approx. 2 boat lengths on the first reach - they started 4 boat lengths ahead of LR so should have still been leading at mark 1

8. the penalty was so late it was a joke and it was eventually signalled as a boat on boat penalty (due to it being signalled so late after the start), instead of a vmg penalty

9, Artemis were completely screwed by the umpires - and that's the way it is

10. When the umpires realised they had fucked up WHY didn't they just abandon the race at mark 1 and do a restart ??

10. Artemis could have protested the race afterwards but the honour of guys like percy and TT decided that it just wasn't worth it.

CONCLUSION: Umpire's you fucked up and deprived us of a possibly the best race so far, #pleasedon'tfuckupagain

#sailonbart

 

laser 173312

Anarchist
679
34
South Wales
I think it's showing which boats are clear or in danger of receiving a penalty. When the boat is red it's in danger. At the point of contact LR was on starboard, AR was not so AR is penalised.

Watching the reply there are 2 questions however.

The penalty was shown to be on LR at first, but AR ended up taking it. Do the umpires not know how to use the penalty equipment?

2nd AR protested and then they get penalised. There was no indication that LR had protested, so how are AR penalised?

 
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Uneven Keel

Super Anarchist
1,480
0
I think it's showing which boats are clear or in danger of receiving a penalty. When the boat is red it's in danger. At the point of contact LR was on starboard, AR was not so AR is penalised.

Watching the reply there are 2 questions however.

The penalty was shown to be on LR at first, but AR ended up taking it. Do the umpires not know how to use the penalty equipment?

2nd AR protested and then they get penalised. There was no indication that LR had protested, so how are AR penalised?
Red/Green are tacks

 

Presuming Ed

Super Anarchist
11,018
171
London, UK
I think it's showing which boats are clear or in danger of receiving a penalty. When the boat is red it's in danger. At the point of contact LR was on starboard, AR was not so AR is penalised.
Colours show tacks. Hulls are highlighted when overlapped.

Swe is give way boat - either as windward, or as clear astern, or as port, from the moment she tacks. Question is about 16.1 and ITA giving room as she alters course. Difficult to judge without being there following the boats, and watching SWE's turn to port.

Interesting to see how little it brings to umpiring, really. Nice to have sharp, definitive answers about overlaps, (albeit an expensive way of doing it compared to observers onboard (*)). It's still mostly 15/16.1 judgements, I would guess.

*(yes, I understand why they would now not want observers onboard, and there is a 1 or 2 observer required question with cats)

 
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5X-MOANA

Member
212
8
SF no more
Port/Starboard. LR had completed it's tack onto stbd. AR were still on port tack when contact was made.
RRS Rule 15:"When a boat acquires right of way, she shall initially give the other boat room to keep clear, unless she acquires right of way because of the other boat's actions."

Unrelated:

At 31 SWE completes her tack (TWA >50 degrees), why would ITA be allowed to tack back in front of them (ITA is head to wind and tacking at 34)?

 
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KiwiJoker

Super Anarchist
3,734
324
Auckland, NZ
The penalty was a joke - this is the factual evidence - I was on the water listening to the radios:

1. whether Artemis were at fault is dubious at best

2. The umpires penalised Artemis 25 s before the start

3. It was supposed to be a VMG penalty

4. the umpire in the booth was not accustomed with the buttons so fucked up on pressing the buttons to indicate a vmg penalty

- Umpire Mike Martin who would normally press the buttons was awol (apparently with the band "red hot chilli powders " in a rib on the water)

5. The woman replacing Mike Martin in the booth fucked up by not knowing the button sequence - after pressing the SWE penalty button you then have to press either the VMG button (as in this case) or the boat on boat bot penalty button)

6. in a panic she pressed the SWE penalty button and then realised that nothing had happened so instead of pressing the VMG button pressed the SWE button again which completely cleared the penalty.

7. It was a total fuck up - the penalty was supposed to be a vmg penalty which would have penalised Artemis by approx. 2 boat lengths on the first reach - they started 4 boat lengths ahead of LR so should have still been leading at mark 1

8. the penalty was so late it was a joke and it was eventually signalled as a boat on boat penalty (due to it being signalled so late after the start), instead of a vmg penalty

9, Artemis were completely screwed by the umpires - and that's the way it is

10. When the umpires realised they had fucked up WHY didn't they just abandon the race at mark 1 and do a restart ??

10. Artemis could have protested the race afterwards but the honour of guys like percy and TT decided that it just wasn't worth it.

CONCLUSION: Umpire's you fucked up and deprived us of a possibly the best race so far, #pleasedon'tfuckupagain

#sailonbart
Interesting.

So the call for a penalty against Artemis for failing to give way was correct.

It should have been signalled as a VMG (speed made good to windward) penalty which would have resulted in an instant slow down by Artemis, conceding two boat lengths. And while she was very slow and bearing off from her head-to-wind position.

Instead, you tell us, because of the screwup the penalty was signalled after the boats rounded Mark One as a BoB (boat on boat) penalty, again requiring Artemis to drop back. Perhaps someone can tell us by how much.

If you're right, and I have no reason to doubt you in the absence of contrary or confirmatory evidence, Artemis got pinged although belatedly, due to sloppy RC work.

Not a federal case, I'd say. A technical error but not one that changed the course of events (no pun). Artemis still got round the mark first and a few seconds faster than they would have otherwise.

 

kwikfisher

Member
205
0
Auckland
Presumably IM and co will forget all about 45 gate now and run a boot camp for officials.Yeah right.

AR team might volunteer for on water experience? or I can be there in 24? Might have to postpone lotto win. Any ophers?

K

 

kwikfisher

Member
205
0
Auckland
The penalty was a joke - this is the factual evidence - I was on the water listening to the radios:

1. whether Artemis were at fault is dubious at best

2. The umpires penalised Artemis 25 s before the start

3. It was supposed to be a VMG penalty

4. the umpire in the booth was not accustomed with the buttons so fucked up on pressing the buttons to indicate a vmg penalty

- Umpire Mike Martin who would normally press the buttons was awol (apparently with the band "red hot chilli powders " in a rib on the water)

5. The woman replacing Mike Martin in the booth fucked up by not knowing the button sequence - after pressing the SWE penalty button you then have to press either the VMG button (as in this case) or the boat on boat bot penalty button)

6. in a panic she pressed the SWE penalty button and then realised that nothing had happened so instead of pressing the VMG button pressed the SWE button again which completely cleared the penalty.

7. It was a total fuck up - the penalty was supposed to be a vmg penalty which would have penalised Artemis by approx. 2 boat lengths on the first reach - they started 4 boat lengths ahead of LR so should have still been leading at mark 1

8. the penalty was so late it was a joke and it was eventually signalled as a boat on boat penalty (due to it being signalled so late after the start), instead of a vmg penalty

9, Artemis were completely screwed by the umpires - and that's the way it is

10. When the umpires realised they had fucked up WHY didn't they just abandon the race at mark 1 and do a restart ??

10. Artemis could have protested the race afterwards but the honour of guys like percy and TT decided that it just wasn't worth it.

CONCLUSION: Umpire's you fucked up and deprived us of a possibly the best race so far, #pleasedon'tfuckupagain

#sailonbart
Interesting.

So the call for a penalty against Artemis for failing to give way was correct.

It should have been signalled as a VMG (speed made good to windward) penalty which would have resulted in an instant slow down by Artemis, conceding two boat lengths. And while she was very slow and bearing off from her head-to-wind position.

Instead, you tell us, because of the screwup the penalty was signalled after the boats rounded Mark One as a BoB (boat on boat) penalty, again requiring Artemis to drop back. Perhaps someone can tell us by how much.

If you're right, and I have no reason to doubt you in the absence of contrary or confirmatory evidence, Artemis got pinged although belatedly, due to sloppy RC work.

Not a federal case, I'd say. A technical error but not one that changed the course of events (no pun). Artemis still got round the mark first and a few seconds faster than they would have otherwise.
Official obviously was given the LEAD finger!

K

 

dogwatch

Super Anarchist
16,348
1,293
South Coast, UK
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5X-MOANA

Member
212
8
SF no more
Correction, I did not see the wind direction indicator at the top left.

It seems to show that ITA may not have tacked back (initially) but simply luffed head to wind, which is their right as leeward yacht as long as 16.1 is met...

Times I referenced in last post are from the top of the replay, not the clip runtime.

Clip is from "Umpire Booth Replays":

http://noticeboard.americascup.com/umpire/umpire-booth-replays/

 
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In BoatingNZ magazine a few months ago, there was an article called the Umpires strike back. It explained how the calls are being made and what info is available.

If you look on the AC site, you can find spreadsheets from both boats and all official boats showing all sorts of data incuding radio traffic. One of those pieces of data is rudder angle. This is only available to the umpires and not other teams. From that they are able to determine the state of the helm of both boats in real time. There is a shit load of other stuff and is quite interesting to open and look at.

Clip is from "Umpire Booth Replays":

http://noticeboard.a...-booth-replays/


I think you will find the arrow from the mast is the rudder angle and if that is the case then AR was still turning right at the contact.

Thanks SL33 SF
Just remember err is human, if you really want to fuck up, use a computer.

Sad for AR, would love to have seen them get one race at least. Would have made the past few months that much easier to take.

 
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5X-MOANA

Member
212
8
SF no more
Correction, I did not see the wind direction indicator at the top left.

It seems to show that ITA may not have tacked back (initially) but simply luffed head to wind, which is their right as leeward yacht as long as 16.1 is met...
However, on the video is clear that ITA were tacking (passed head to wind) or had tacked (sails filled on new side) shortly before contact:

Capture.PNG

 

eric e

Super Anarchist
6,396
9
nz.akl
i think KR said that as it was so tricky the umpires probably wouldn't have penalised to anyone

but there was clear contact

so they had to penalise someone

imho NO was a bit too aggressive on the 2nd tack

AR lost all momentum

and his "wheel full lock" comment came when he realised he had chased LR too close and if draper chose to keep right of way they would hit

NO needed more time practicing starts

but then he needed to win that race to he had to try some high risk maneuvers to be first to the mark

unlucky for him draper could afford to get a penalty in an aggressive start

more than he could afford to be losing another start

so at the crucial moment

like when jimmy sent wuss into the committee boat

draper didn't give way when he could have

'cause he was sick of it making him look like a mug

at this level you can only afford to be gracious once

 
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Presuming Ed

Super Anarchist
11,018
171
London, UK
f you look on the AC site, you can find spreadsheets from both boats and all official boats showing all sorts of data incuding radio traffic. One of those pieces of data is rudder angle. This is only available to the umpires and not other teams. From that they are able to determine the state of the helm of both boats in real time.
Which is all very well, but it doesn't tell you how much helm you can apply at any one time. Sticking helm on is all very well, but if all it results in is two stalled out rudders, it's not very helpful.

 

dun

Member
302
0
In BoatingNZ magazine a few months ago, there was an article called the Umpires strike back. It explained how the calls are being made and what info is available.

If you look on the AC site, you can find spreadsheets from both boats and all official boats showing all sorts of data incuding radio traffic. One of those pieces of data is rudder angle. This is only available to the umpires and not other teams. From that they are able to determine the state of the helm of both boats in real time. There is a shit load of other stuff and is quite interesting to open and look at.

Clip is from "Umpire Booth Replays":

http://noticeboard.a...-booth-replays/


I think you will find the arrow from the mast is the rudder angle and if that is the case then AR was still turning right at the contact.

Thanks SL33 SF
Just remember err is human, if you really want to fuck up, use a computer.

Sad for AR, would love to have seen them get one race at least. Would have made the past few months that much easier to take.
do you mean the arrow from the mast that changes length, why would rudder angle have a vector component.?

 

vlei

New member
22
0
if wind direction and heading are accurately represented in the graphics:

LR luffed beyond head to wind. when contact was made LR had not completed tack onto close-hauled course and so was tacking. tacking boat has to keep clear.

jib filling after they passed head to wind does not necessarily mean they had completed tack. AR was not tacking and didn't have to avoid.

arrow at mast can't be rudder angle it must be the actual direction and speed of the boat.

 
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