Luna Rossa Challenge. AC 37

Forourselves

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The only problem with this statement is that I know Ken Read and he is not stupid.

So then I examined the two posts to try and understand what it was you are disagreeing or agreeing with.

4 selves: " Ineos was reminiscent of Formula 1....foils were designed by Mercedes"

Dg : "Stupid...without help of Mercedes ITUK would not have made the Prada Final"

Let me see if I have this right.

4 Selves is arguing that Mercedes had a significant impact on the design of Ineos.

Dg , strongly disagrees and argues instead that Mercedes had a significant impact on the design of Ineos

Most disagree with both of you, because they believe that Mercedes had a significant impact on the design of Ineos.  

Personally I would say that we dont know how much impact Mercedes had on the design of Ineos but in parts I suspect it was meaningful.
https://www.ineosteamuk.com/en/articles/299_Pushing-to-the-leading-edge-of-design-with-Mercedes-F1-Applied-Science.html

 

Forourselves

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And I bet you think the W foils were first used in NZ too.. 

Reality is they were first used on B1 in the Solent before they packed up for NZ 

dont believe all the PR even if it fits your narrative 
And they were shit then, and they were shit in Auckland. Either way, they were shit. The first boat was a dog, and the second wasn’t much better. 

 

mako23

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And they were shit then, and they were shit in Auckland. Either way, they were shit. The first boat was a dog, and the second wasn’t much better. 
I don’t think that the Brits B2 boat was a dog. I think the boom they were using was not the best solution. Nor was their foils the best either. If you put a boomless solution like the Italians and better foils you would have a good boat. A world better no, but certainly not a dog.

 

mako23

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I don’t think F1 teams add much to America’s cup teams. Aerodynamic and hydrodynamic are so different at high speed. There’s no cavitation and ventilation in F1 racing, yet both these factors are super important in the America’s Cup. Also water doesn’t compress and air does. High speed hydrodynamic is a specialized area best worked on by experts in that field....ie not F1 teams 

 

strider470

Super Anarchist
I don’t think F1 teams add much to America’s cup teams. Aerodynamic and hydrodynamic are so different at high speed. There’s no cavitation and ventilation in F1 racing, yet both these factors are super important in the America’s Cup. Also water doesn’t compress and air does. High speed hydrodynamic is a specialized area best worked on by experts in that field....ie not F1 teams 
Actually, I think it's more of a marketing move, in case. Ferrari is one of the excellences of Made in Italy. The Agnelli family, owners of the FIAT group, Ferrari, Juventus etc.., has always been involved in sailing and they have a long history in the AC, being behind the first Italian challenge ever, Azzurra 1983.

 
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mako23

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Actually, I think it's more of a marketing move, in case. Ferrari is one of the excellences of Made in Italy. The Agnelli family, owners of the FIAT group, Ferrari, Juventus etc.., has always been involved in sailing and they have a long history in the AC, being behind the first Italian challenge ever, Azzurra 1983.
In the case of LR I agree, but I do think that Ineos went down that rabbit hole with predictable results. Apart from ETNZ, LR must have the biggest amount of intellectual capital. It was no surprise to me that they won the Prada cup in a convincing manner. If they keep the same design team, I’m expecting LR to be the strongest contender in the next cup. 

 

strider470

Super Anarchist
Luna Rossa (the boat) was recently interviewed about the rumoured eventuality of a 1 - 1 Match between xTNZ and INEOS.

We have the picture with the answer embedded :D :D :D

tiè.jpg

 

Thewas

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I don’t think F1 teams add much to America’s cup teams. Aerodynamic and hydrodynamic are so different at high speed. There’s no cavitation and ventilation in F1 racing, yet both these factors are super important in the America’s Cup. Also water doesn’t compress and air does. High speed hydrodynamic is a specialized area best worked on by experts in that field....ie not F1 teams 
I lost track of it, but few months ago I'm pretty sure I read  that MercedesF1 helped INEOS optimizing the hydro power transfer/storage. And they ended up with two grinder less than the other teams.
I still think F1 teams have quite some good tool for evaluating fluid dynamics and, on top of everything else, a solid attitude toward marginal gain.
Due to the speeds of the AC75s a marginal gain can easily add a knot of boatspeed. 

 

mako23

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I lost track of it, but few months ago I'm pretty sure I read  that MercedesF1 helped INEOS optimizing the hydro power transfer/storage. And they ended up with two grinder less than the other teams.
I still think F1 teams have quite some good tool for evaluating fluid dynamics and, on top of everything else, a solid attitude toward marginal gain.
Due to the speeds of the AC75s a marginal gain can easily add a knot of boatspeed. 
You make a good point about the Grinders but I suspect they have no tools in regards to fluid dynamics and especially fluid dynamics at high speed. The difference between water and air at high speed is so great, air CFD is useless. 
I would not call Ineos a dog but it was probably the slowest boat in the fleet. If AM Magic was sailed by the Prada or ETNZ crew there would of been a different result. 
 

So for all the effort of Mercedes technical staff they produced a slowish boat compared to the rest of the fleet. In the end results speak the loudest 

 

EYESAILOR

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Out of left field I had a crazy idea this weekend.   Why wait for NZ? Why be bound by the DoG.  Prada should host a Prada Cup in Italy next summer and challenge AM, with an invitation to any other AC75 teams to attend.

No reason why the Prada Cup could not be hosted on an annual basis. In Cup years, it would be the challenger series. In off years it would be the single most important even on a nascent AC75 circuit.

Host in Sardinia, puerto cervo with all the prestigious attractions for billionaires?

 

chesirecat

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You make a good point about the Grinders but I suspect they have no tools in regards to fluid dynamics and especially fluid dynamics at high speed. The difference between water and air at high speed is so great, air CFD is useless. 
I would not call Ineos a dog but it was probably the slowest boat in the fleet. If AM Magic was sailed by the Prada or ETNZ crew there would of been a different result. 
 

So for all the effort of Mercedes technical staff they produced a slowish boat compared to the rest of the fleet. In the end results speak the loudest 
Merc came in late, after B1 launch with B2 committed. They had to set up a whole new manufacturing and design capability at Ineos. 

 
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mako23

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Merc came in late, after B1 launch with B2 committed. They had to set up a whole new manufacturing and design capability at Ineos. 
I have no doubt that Merc have outstanding engineering skills and I’m sure if involved again they will a better job than before. I am not disparaging Mercs skill set. In the field they specialize in there the best in the world. Unfortunately for them that skill set doesn’t include high speed hydrodynamics. High speed aerodynamic skill set  is of no use for for high speed hydrodynamics. 

 
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