Mackinac Safety Requirements

oneguyfromdetroit

Super Anarchist
1,886
20
Detroit
Just sent this off to both Mac race chairmen...I know at least one of them pokes his nose in here....

Comments?

July 10, 2009

To: Chicago Yacht Club and Bayview Yacht Club Mackinac Race Chairs.

Re: Mackinac Race Safety Requirements

Gentlemen:

After a 10 year hiatus from campaigning my own boats, I once again find myself racing my own boat in both Mackinac races. The new (to me anyway) combined MSR contains some requirements that I’d like to see modified. Below are my comments and suggestions. I would appreciate yours, and your committee’s serious consideration.

1. MSR 18 – Cooking stove. Is it really necessary to be able to cook for a 40-60 hour race? Many crews survive just fine with sandwiches and other non-cooked foods. I suggest stoves be optional, those who chose to carry must of course meet current standards.

2. MSR 49 – Charts. I was annoyed I had to buy all new paper charts. I understand the concern about total reliance on electronic charts, but an alternative could be a second, battery operated GPS, or, not require current paper charts (The lakes don’t change…the buoys do), and, and use older paper charts, and, updated light list/notice to mariners. That would be a more meaningful back up. My point is that all new charts, for both races cost around 100 bucks….you can download the light list and updates for free. And I already have older charts. I suggest offering a choice between back up electronic charting, and/or a combination of older charts/light list/updates.

3. MSR 67 – Personal Flotation Equipment. The requirement to carry Type I PFD’s, especially on boats also carrying life rafts, is impractical, as they are not suited to actually wear. This would be less of an issue if we weren’t required to wear them. The alternative that currently exists is certainly more wearable, however, they don’t do much good if you’re unable to pull the cord to inflate it. Suggest that boats be allowed the Type II, (or whatever was required before this requirement was implemented), at least for those boats who carry life rafts.

4. MSR 69 - Wearing of PFD’s. This requirement really doesn't make a lot of sense. Sailing between sunset and sunrise is not at all inherently more dangerous than sailing during daylight, and the requirement to wear a PFD simply because the sun is down does not make us safer. . With the current requirements, you are forced to wear a PFD at night when it is 0 gusting to 2, and NOT required to wear them during daylight hours, regardless of conditions. I suggest you eliminate this requirement, and leave it to the choice of the responsible party, or person in charge. Or, if we could wear our dinghy style PFD’s, that actually work when you hit the water without having to manually activate anything, that would be a reasonable and more practical alternative

This year I am racing in my 15th CHIMAC and my 27th BYCMAC, so I feel qualified to comment and offer suggestions.

Thank you for your consideration. Not trying to be difficult, just practical.

Please consider these suggestions for 2010 and beyond.

Thank you,

 

big chicken

Super Anarchist
1,715
0
I'm on a boat
I don't have nearly as many years of Mac experience as you but I have been racing for 30 years. When I first experienced the MSRs last year in prepping my boat, I was frankly surprised. My supposition is that these rules are ideas that have probably developed a life of their own and grown significantly over the years. "You know, if "x" is a good idea for safety, then "x plus y" must be even better." Can you take any of the current rules and come up with a rationale or potential scenario why that rule is in place? Yes, I'm sure you can. Does that make the current rule realistic for these races? I'm not so sure. I suspect that if someone who was well knowledgeable in safety needs for given circumstances but was not intimately tied to the Mac races were to sit down and craft a new set of rules from scratch, that we might not see many of the current requirements.

 
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barleymalt

Super Anarchist
11,382
89
Michigan
Cooking stove for if you have to boil water in case you run out. We don't use ours either. On the big boat, it was nice to put everything in the oven. On the small boat, warm food and beer will be an extra incentive to get to the island. My 27th BYC as well.
You can carry a bottle of purification tabs to do the same thing. I really don't see the need for current paper charts, especially with a backup gps. I have a bit more burn with the CYC life raft or EPIRB, you should carry both. Yeah, they cost $$, but safety shouldn't be a budget decision, and an EPIRB doesn't help find several crew dispersing in big waves.

 
When we sailed the 30 footer the first time to Mackinac in 2002, I questioned the committee on why the monohulls where required to have a sink installed, while multihulls where not. I pointed out I didn't have or want a sink. The committee replied that they didn’t want sailors removing sinks from existing boats, and that my lack of sink would give me a competitive advantage. We installed a sink, which ruined a perfectly good chart table, and has not been used to this date.

 
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Rumbulls

Super Anarchist
7,234
5
Boyne City
What Mack boat doesn't have a stock stove top? (serious question)

What would you do with out any power?

I agree with your thoughts on 67.

The only way the MRC will know that you weren't wearing your PFD at night is if you fall off the boat without it.

Will be my 5th Chi-Mac.

I have only 1 BYC-Mac.

 
and an EPIRB doesn't help find several crew dispersing in big waves.

Yeah but the EPIRB can help find the bodies after they circumed to hypothermia :eek:
EPIRB is only a requirement if you don't have a liferaft. (Strongly recommended)
So are you going to cut cards to see who gets the EPIRB if the boat does go down, That will help find 1 body anyway, or tie ourselves togeather anyway. EPIRB is great if you can stay with the boat but it will not help you with hypothermia.

Regards

Oh and on other points from OGFD, safety issues (wearing the pfd harness,) should always be the skippers call for the boat, mandate you will have them, personal choice as to when you put it on and yes the stove makes little sence.

See you folks on Friday

Regards

 

casc27

Super Anarchist
2,364
140
Cooking stove for if you have to boil water in case you run out. We don't use ours either. On the big boat, it was nice to put everything in the oven. On the small boat, warm food and beer will be an extra incentive to get to the island. My 27th BYC as well.

Seriously, the idea behind the working stove is you can boil water to make it safe for drinking if you run out? You freshwater guys have some strange ideas/rules. The epirb requirement is probably worthwhile but the sink thing, you gotta be kidding me. (At least it sounds like that one has been done away with.)

 

REW

Anarchist
935
77
The MSR discussion has come up annually for several years now and it always fascinates me, another example of not being able to satisfy everyone. When we started this project 4 years ago we were coming off of using ORC cat II with modifications and it was a mess because of all the exceptions that were created for the Mac races, remember when you had to carry emergency fresh water? Now you don't even have to have water tanks or A SINK! These rules were developed and reviewed by a group of current active racers/owners that probably average 25 plus Macs each.

Here's a great example, we have the "don't try to tell me what I have to do crowd" that are often the same folks that bitch because we strongly recommended a life raft, but gave them a choice. Tell them what to do and they bitch, give them a choice and they bitch. We can all go home and get treated like that.....

We got rid of the Light List because we all know that 80% of the crew on every boat has a personal GPS along with the 3 chart plotters that already live on the boat. The only reason people were buying light lists was to satisfy the rule and have something to put away that they would have to find later to prove that they had it.

The Chart Rule says "current" not latest.....I would call that purposely vague. If the chart is not the latest but hasn't changed it's probably current. Learn to read rules. Paper equivilant means you can carry a chart book, which is way more detailed and useful, although a little heavy.

The PFD discussion has also been annually hashed. It's not a TYPE I only requirement but also as an alternative a TYPE V inflatable with a minimum 33 lb buoyancy reserve. These seem to work pretty well for the Volvo guys. We had extensive dialog with the Coast Guard regarding all of the rules and regarding life rafts and mandatory PFD's and Epirbs, they told us that finding a boat in distress and not having to fish drowned corpses out of the water was far more important on the GL than liferafts.

Regarding a cooking stove and from a guy that races a very fast weight sensitive boat, this rule can be used very competitvely. For example we carry freeze dried meals, no ice, and limited water. Our stove weighs less than 2 lbs and uses small butane cans. The water comes out of the lake and completes our meals and provides our drinking water (with heat).

These rules will continue to get tweaked every year and unneccessary annoyance eliminated whenever possible, and we do appreciate constructive input and comment.

Ron White

 

Rumbulls

Super Anarchist
7,234
5
Boyne City
Ron White?.... AKA Tater Salad? :lol:

RonWhite.jpeg


I'm not the first... and surely not the last!

 

lartaunt

Super Anarchist
The MSR discussion has come up annually for several years now and it always fascinates me, another example of not being able to satisfy everyone. When we started this project 4 years ago we were coming off of using ORC cat II with modifications and it was a mess because of all the exceptions that were created for the Mac races, remember when you had to carry emergency fresh water? Now you don't even have to have water tanks or A SINK! These rules were developed and reviewed by a group of current active racers/owners that probably average 25 plus Macs each.
Here's a great example, we have the "don't try to tell me what I have to do crowd" that are often the same folks that bitch because we strongly recommended a life raft, but gave them a choice. Tell them what to do and they bitch, give them a choice and they bitch. We can all go home and get treated like that.....

We got rid of the Light List because we all know that 80% of the crew on every boat has a personal GPS along with the 3 chart plotters that already live on the boat. The only reason people were buying light lists was to satisfy the rule and have something to put away that they would have to find later to prove that they had it.

The Chart Rule says "current" not latest.....I would call that purposely vague. If the chart is not the latest but hasn't changed it's probably current. Learn to read rules. Paper equivilant means you can carry a chart book, which is way more detailed and useful, although a little heavy.

The PFD discussion has also been annually hashed. It's not a TYPE I only requirement but also as an alternative a TYPE V inflatable with a minimum 33 lb buoyancy reserve. These seem to work pretty well for the Volvo guys. We had extensive dialog with the Coast Guard regarding all of the rules and regarding life rafts and mandatory PFD's and Epirbs, they told us that finding a boat in distress and not having to fish drowned corpses out of the water was far more important on the GL than liferafts.

Regarding a cooking stove and from a guy that races a very fast weight sensitive boat, this rule can be used very competitvely. For example we carry freeze dried meals, no ice, and limited water. Our stove weighs less than 2 lbs and uses small butane cans. The water comes out of the lake and completes our meals and provides our drinking water (with heat).

These rules will continue to get tweaked every year and unneccessary annoyance eliminated whenever possible, and we do appreciate constructive input and comment.

Ron White

No ICE! Seriously?! No Ice! How do you keep your drinks cold?

Don't the regs also require you to carry a couple fo gallons of drinking water? That could be frozen? :blink:

 

REW

Anarchist
935
77
The MSR discussion has come up annually for several years now and it always fascinates me, another example of not being able to satisfy everyone. When we started this project 4 years ago we were coming off of using ORC cat II with modifications and it was a mess because of all the exceptions that were created for the Mac races, remember when you had to carry emergency fresh water? Now you don't even have to have water tanks or A SINK! These rules were developed and reviewed by a group of current active racers/owners that probably average 25 plus Macs each.
Here's a great example, we have the "don't try to tell me what I have to do crowd" that are often the same folks that bitch because we strongly recommended a life raft, but gave them a choice. Tell them what to do and they bitch, give them a choice and they bitch. We can all go home and get treated like that.....

We got rid of the Light List because we all know that 80% of the crew on every boat has a personal GPS along with the 3 chart plotters that already live on the boat. The only reason people were buying light lists was to satisfy the rule and have something to put away that they would have to find later to prove that they had it.

The Chart Rule says "current" not latest.....I would call that purposely vague. If the chart is not the latest but hasn't changed it's probably current. Learn to read rules. Paper equivilant means you can carry a chart book, which is way more detailed and useful, although a little heavy.

The PFD discussion has also been annually hashed. It's not a TYPE I only requirement but also as an alternative a TYPE V inflatable with a minimum 33 lb buoyancy reserve. These seem to work pretty well for the Volvo guys. We had extensive dialog with the Coast Guard regarding all of the rules and regarding life rafts and mandatory PFD's and Epirbs, they told us that finding a boat in distress and not having to fish drowned corpses out of the water was far more important on the GL than liferafts.

Regarding a cooking stove and from a guy that races a very fast weight sensitive boat, this rule can be used very competitvely. For example we carry freeze dried meals, no ice, and limited water. Our stove weighs less than 2 lbs and uses small butane cans. The water comes out of the lake and completes our meals and provides our drinking water (with heat).

These rules will continue to get tweaked every year and unneccessary annoyance eliminated whenever possible, and we do appreciate constructive input and comment.

Ron White

No ICE! Seriously?! No Ice! How do you keep your drinks cold?

Don't the regs also require you to carry a couple fo gallons of drinking water? That could be frozen? :blink:
We freeze about 4 to 6 liters of bottled water to get us started. Regs don't require any drinking water, we're sailing on 25% of the worlds fresh water supply.

 

Fizzpot

Member
230
0
Houston, Tx
Paper charts = good idea

Stove = strange, but I assume its to keep people from removing stoves to lighten their boat

PFDs at night = good idea

I can think of a recent situation of a capsize at night that claimed the life of a sailor on a boat equiped with a life raft and a EPIRB and didn't have a chance to use either. PFDs saved the remaining crews lives.

I guess sailing on a lake changes opinions on what is safe or not?

 


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