Manual Altitude Control vs Wand

jackattack

Anarchist
742
36
Sydney
I think the complete quote was " Sail upwind better than an equivalent boat without foils" I may be proved wrong one day but based on Jundt's 18 and the big M, I do not think so yet.
==========================

Here are three of Phil S quotes on this subject:

1)That 49er is about to make a big splash, maybe damage something big and possibly hurt people in the process. It might be getting lift momentarilly but it is not flying even by the standards of the Wright brothers on their first flight. No wonder most of us had never heard of the experiment or seen the pictures. (Show me a video of it going upwind in 10kts at better VMG than another good 49er and I might change my opinion)

Why do people fantacize about foiling all these big boats? Is its because the moths do it so well at it? Maybe they should look at what makes foiling moths successful. The trend is smaller, simpler and lighter with easilly depowered rigs, not bigger, heavier, more complex and more cumbersome in the water, out of the water and most significanly launching and retrieving. These same things made moths very fast for their size long before foiling hit the scene.

No matter how much enthusiasm there is posted by one zealot and many more uninformed speculators, the evidence so far is that it will be a long time before another class will get the success from foiling now being exhibited by the Moths.

2) Weight is critical for foiling. The people who go well are all under 75kg, better if under 70kg. I am 85kg and need 15kts to go faster round the course on foils than I do wihout. In light winds with foils I am so slow when the light people with smaller foils are still staying up there with the non foiling boats.

Consequently I believe there is no benefit in fitting foils to any boat bigger and heavier than a moth. If the boat weighs 50kg instead of 30 it will just need more wind before there is adequate power to overcome the imersed foil+hull drag and be able to take off. It might foil nicely with 20 kt winds but will be extremely slow in lighter winds. Building bigger foils to carry the weight only increases the drag at low speeds and makes it all worse.

So I see the proposed 50kg narrow International Canoe without foils as the best option for those people who are too big to race a foiling moth. Foils would not work well enough in a wide range of winds.

---------------------

3) BUT DOUG THERE ARE NO PHOTOS OF ANYTHING OTHER THAN MOTHS FOILING TO WINDWARD.(2006)

Deleting your post and reposting in an hour later doesn't suddenly make it right Dougie.

 

Doug Lord

Super Anarchist
11,483
21
Cocoa Beach, FL
date='Jun 2 2009, 08:53 PM'
Deleting your post and reposting in an hour later doesn't suddenly make it right Dougie.
======================

Jackie, you're right. I couldn't figure out how to add #3-but this worked well. As far as "making it right"-it doesn't need to be made right: it is 100% in Phils own words and just goes to show that his attitude toward manual altitude control probably suffers from the same lack of "technical imagination".

I'll guarantee you that the following quote is no more accurate than the early prognostications about large foilers. What is a real shame is that a man of Phils intelligence would make such hard and fast comments back then and turn around and make the same mistake again today:

Doug, stop fishing for a patent idea.Nothing here. Its all been done, tested, and proven unworkable. It took 5 years of experimentation before foiling moths were really viable and in that time the Iletts and Burville in Perth plus Wardi and my household in Sydney at least but also lots of others around the world, tried an enormous range of ideas and it was only really when John and Garth tested the first bow wand system that it started to come together as a viable set up. Subsequent experiments have proven no better.Believe me as one who has tried manual control and several poor auto systems, what we are all using now is the best out of a big bag of tricks from some pretty cleaver and inovative experimenters, all of whom prefer to build, get wet and test, and not just brouse the WWW.
 
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Is anybody making a "I foiled before DL" t-shirt? For those of us that foiled on a moth before DL has ever foiled?
That should be worked into the regatta T-shirt for the worlds. Maybe even add a foil beanie.
There should be Moth Worlds awards:

  • The aeroSKIFF Memorial - for the most unlikely boat that is witnessed attempting to foil during the event
  • The Oh Lordy! Award - for the most complicated control system that fails to work as intended
  • The "Duggie" - for the most gravity-challenged person who gets a Moth up on foils during the regatta

Just some random thoughts.

--

Bill
I'm definitely in the running on #1, with strong potential in group 2.

 

PorVida

Member
456
0
Leftie File
Canting keels will change the world of sailing as we know it!!!!!

Paraphrased quote by Doug Lord three years ago. So far, the only impact that canting keels have had on the world of sailing is precisely the same as it was when he made the comment. Racing boats and what... two weasel attempts to put them on non-racers that have been virtually ignored by the buying public.

Yep, Doug, you certainly got that one right. Changing the world of sailing as we know it...

More than three years ago, by Doug Lord... Bi-foil technology will sweep the sailing world and establish new realms of sailing performance!!!

Well, Douglas, I think that any reasonable man would very clearly say that bi-foilers have not swept the sailing world. They are being sold to a collection of those interested in the potential, but the larger sailing world still views the whole thing as a novelty and very seriously not for their tastes. What do you want to bet that the lowly O'penBIC has sold four times as many boats into the market place than the total of foiling craft? Hell, the Laser is most likely still outselling foilers and how old is that design?

We're not exactly seeing the big broom, Douglas. Where is the power in your ability to predict?

There's more Dougie, there's lots more... shall I go on?

Geeeezus, DL, get your fat butt out to the garage and produce something that shows that you have even a tiny inkling of what you spew, day in and day out.

 

nutz

Member
220
0
australia
Canting keels will change the world of sailing as we know it!!!!!Paraphrased quote by Doug Lord three years ago. So far, the only impact that canting keels have had on the world of sailing is precisely the same as it was when he made the comment. Racing boats and what... two weasel attempts to put them on non-racers that have been virtually ignored by the buying public.

Yep, Doug, you certainly got that one right. Changing the world of sailing as we know it...

More than three years ago, by Doug Lord... Bi-foil technology will sweep the sailing world and establish new realms of sailing performance!!!

Well, Douglas, I think that any reasonable man would very clearly say that bi-foilers have not swept the sailing world. They are being sold to a collection of those interested in the potential, but the larger sailing world still views the whole thing as a novelty and very seriously not for their tastes. What do you want to bet that the lowly O'penBIC has sold four times as many boats into the market place than the total of foiling craft? Hell, the Laser is most likely still outselling foilers and how old is that design?

We're not exactly seeing the big broom, Douglas. Where is the power in your ability to predict?

There's more Dougie, there's lots more... shall I go on?

Geeeezus, DL, get your fat butt out to the garage and produce something that shows that you have even a tiny inkling of what you spew, day in and day out.

I agree, Doug its easy as grabbing a camera, using your legs for walking in the direction of the garage and taking a pic of something, anything! Really what are you afaid of? Somehow I think you would gain so much more appreciation of your ideas and presumptions on these forums if you actually produced something or were seen to produce something (such as: "here's a bunch of materials for a boat" or "here's some random drawings I was playing with earlier"). Doesn't it get you down that every post to add is subject not to what your actually saying, but straight insults. I would stop posting personally, until you can produce evidence of something and then ram that down necks.

Actually I couldn't give a shit about foils, I've used them before, think there great but couldn't give a shit. I just read these posts cause you make it amusing, thanks.

 

FIGJAM

Member
342
0
you will all be very glad to know i am supremely hungover this morning!!

Motto of last night was GO UGLY EARLY!!!

The red words are hurting my eyes, i did not read anything of the above, i can guess what it said though!!

So, what shall i have for lunch!!

 

SimonN

Super Anarchist
10,533
755
Sydney ex London
Doug

I have tried to keep out of your threads of late because you contribute nothing of value and repeat the same stuff, over and over. However, there are times that you are such an arse that comment is needed.

You don't seem to realise that most things come down to credibility. Somebody like Phil has it. You do not. Phil has it because he has built more foilers and foils than all but a few professionals. He has tried more ideas than probably anybody else and best of all, it is documented and there are photos. Many of us have seen him foiling. Yet you tell us that he has no credibility.

Against that, you expect us to think you have credibility. You have built 1 "foiler" (RC models really do not count) which, even by your most optimistic description, didn't really work as most people would say that to call it even a partial success it needed to be able to foil around a course. Your foils were made by somebody else. You have no documented evidence of your achievements - no photos - no witnesses. In fact, what you have described as your experiences when sailing your foiler doesn't even sound like somebody who has foiled. You rely exclusively on information taken from such reliable sources as blogs, forums and 3rd hand reports. Best of all, you have told everybody for many years that you are building a new boat yet you are the only person I know who won't show even a little evidence of work moving ahead even though it would give you some credibility which, in case you don't get it, you have none of. Worst of all, you tell almost everybody who does foil that they don't know what they are talking about.

Try doing rather than talking. Then you might get some respect.

And BTW, I so much appreciated learning about how long it takes me to get from one side of the 18 to the other. I have clearly been deluding myself about what I am capable of when the need arises.

 

ferrero

Member
92
0
A manual system for a singlehander will require intelligent design but moreover tons of practice but sooner or later I bet it will prove itself in the Moth class.
Doug

Why dont you build a Moth and show all these people how it is done?

I have seen Moths and apart from the foils material cost and labour would be far lower than any other boat so its affordable and you could buy a rig off the shelf so with your "intelligent foil design" you should be way faster and probably dont need a Rohan for your boat to win.

A self proclaimed expert on foils would relish the challenge of beating all others in the premier foiling class and surely this would raise your profile on the WWW.

Douggie in life you are either pushing it or you are pulling it and we know what you are doing.
Please dont quote doug, i'm ignoring him and this way he slips through the net. I just log in to read all the insults and see how long it takes me to work out what the theme of his latest rant is about.

 

TeamFugu

Super Anarchist
5,049
33
SLC, UT
First, this "gentleman" believes he gains credability by critisizing any counter argument. This soon turns into character assasinations on both sides and both sides loose some credability along the way. Acutally doing something and saying on topic are the best way to gain credability.

Second, there are no pictures of ongoing work other than doodles and CAD drawings because the whold project is in design paralysis due to attempts to figure out a way to put the next latest trick in to the bag.

Third, it may be possible to manually control the attitude of a foiling boat better than a wand but all who have spent even a small amount of time on something like a Moth knows that it is highly imipractical due to sensory overload even at the current state.

Forth, some of the main reasons canting keels don't rule is cost, complexity, and I'll be damned if I'm going sailing only to have to run a motor the whole time to provide hydrolics with power. Sure everyone would like to foil but everyone would also like to ski like Jean Claude. I get the same thing with the Swift. Everyone thinks it lookes lovely, would love to have a go, but then decides they'll be godsmacked to be able to keep the think upright for more that a few yards.

To see good examples of how to gain credit, read the DC Canoe thread and see how honest many of the posters have been over strengths and weakensses of their designs and construction methods have been. Photo's of all their work from start to finish and most importantly, there is a finished product.

Quibling over he said she sail is counter productive. As is dispensing with comments from people who are at the leading edge of the curve and have tried almost everything before. Sure there may, some day, be a novel way of doing it, but for now, manual control or the use of motors and servos is a non starter. At least for me. If I want a fucking motor to play on the water, I'd join the rest of the idiots with a PWC. Not going to happen.

 

Doug Lord

Super Anarchist
11,483
21
Cocoa Beach, FL
Doug
I have tried to keep out of your threads of late because you contribute nothing of value and repeat the same stuff, over and over. However, there are times that you are such an arse that comment is needed.

You don't seem to realise that most things come down to credibility. Somebody like Phil has it. You do not. Phil has it because he has built more foilers and foils than all but a few professionals. He has tried more ideas than probably anybody else and best of all, it is documented and there are photos. Many of us have seen him foiling. Yet you tell us that he has no credibility.
=============

Simon, that is not true: it is precisely because he does have credibility that his comments about manual control are so shortsighted. That is backed up by HIS OWN WORDS regarding a foiler like Mirabaud doing what it does: he specifically said it was not possible!!! So when a Phil Stevenson says manual control has been tried and found impossible pardon me if I'm just a little skeptical. Phil has great credibility in sailing but his forecasts of what is possible with the new bi-foil technology have, unfortunately, been dead wrong. And it is a shame when someone with Phils credibility makes a statement like "no foiler bigger than a Moth will ever foil" or "manual control has been tried and found to be impossible". I mean it is damned unfortunate and it is hoped that the true innovators will pay no attention whatsoever. Which is just another reason why Mirabauds experiments with manual control are so significant.

 

BalticBandit

Super Anarchist
11,114
36
Simon, that is not true: it is precisely because he does have credibility that his comments about manual control are so shortsighted. That is backed up by HIS OWN WORDS regarding a foiler like Mirabaud doing what it does: he specifically said it was not possible!!! So when a Phil Stevenson says manual control has been tried and found impossible pardon me if I'm just a little skeptical. Phil has great credibility in sailing but his forecasts of what is possible with the new bi-foil technology have, unfortunately, been dead wrong. And it is a shame when someone with Phils credibility makes a statement like "no foiler bigger than a Moth will ever foil" or "manual control has been tried and found to be impossible". I mean it is damned unfortunate and it is hoped that the true innovators will pay no attention whatsoever. Which is just another reason why Mirabauds experiments with manual control are so significant.
Doug

Some people are willing to admit they were wrong. Until Phil stands by his older words, you have no business trying to discredit Phil with them

What is clear - and what you still don't get - is that your hostiility in the online realm guarantees that any "success" you might have in building a People's Foiler or a "Trapwing skiff" will result in it being shunned by the very community you want to sell it into.

Again, I realize you won't believe anything any of us say.

SO GET AN EXPERT OPINION.

Print Off the pages here.

Take $150 of what would be a Marketing Budget for your project, take the pages and go to either a Marketing Image consultant or an Organizational Psychologist and have them explain to you the dynamics THEY see operating here.

 

PorVida

Member
456
0
Leftie File
Marketing Budget...?

You give Doug far too much credit as an organized entity in that regard. Doug's marketing effort is to blab as often and as abusively as he can muster from the worn-out easy chair he has plopped in front of the TV at his Mom's apartment in Cocoa Beach.

Douglas is truly an enigma because he is too afraid of being honest about his life. It's far easier to create this overwhelming sense of bravado and so-called boaty creativity, than to just fess-up with the gang and become very much like all the rest of us.

To that end.... Doug, I encourage you to drop the pretense of superiority you have created over the years and simply get on with it as a regular guy. We all have warts, we all have our little victories and the rest is the crap we toss-out on the Internet. These are good guys here, if you simply meet them half way with your heady pronouncements.

Quit calling other people absurd while trotting out long strings of useless numbers. Get yourself at the same place where everyone can coexist peacefully and openly share your work. Post your best effort drawings and photos and learn to be happy that you have that talent. Believe me, there are lots of guys here who can't draw their way out of a bag, so go for it. You don't have to produce a Michelangelo level of rendering in order to make your presence valid.

I have not seen one person on this Forum who would not openly welcome you into the fraternity (there has not been any women yet with the lack of sense to join this goofball parade) and invite you to show your work as a sharing member of the clan. So clear the decks of your past behavior and reach out as a citizen of the dinghy community. Lay down the defensiveness and put your efforts in the hands of the folks who can truly give you solid feedback. Trust that you don't know everything of this genre and that you never will. That's where the fellowship gives you rich rewards. The whole is greater than its individual parts.

It's time to step away from the braggadocio of fitful desperation and just be one of the guys.

What do you say?

Chris O

 
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nutz

Member
220
0
australia
Doug Lord said:
Simon, that is not true: it is precisely because he does have credibility that his comments about manual control are so shortsighted. That is backed up by HIS OWN WORDS regarding a foiler like Mirabaud doing what it does: he specifically said it was not possible!!! So when a Phil Stevenson says manual control has been tried and found impossible pardon me if I'm just a little skeptical. Phil has great credibility in sailing but his forecasts of what is possible with the new bi-foil technology have, unfortunately, been dead wrong. And it is a shame when someone with Phils credibility makes a statement like "no foiler bigger than a Moth will ever foil" or "manual control has been tried and found to be impossible". I mean it is damned unfortunate and it is hoped that the true innovators will pay no attention whatsoever. Which is just another reason why Mirabauds experiments with manual control are so significant.
Doug

Some people are willing to admit they were wrong. Until Phil stands by his older words,1) you have no business trying to discredit Phil with them

What is clear - and what you still don't get - 2)is that your hostiility in the online realm guarantees that any "success" you might have in building a People's Foiler or a "Trapwing skiff" will result in it being shunned by the very community you want to sell it into.
--------------------------------------------------

1) Discredit Phil?! I'm afraid you're incorrect: I am genuinely sad that a man of Phils capability would have made the comments he made in 2006 in response to an individual on the Moth forum asking about the potential of bi-foil technology on larger boats. Those comments were wrong and unfortunately,since they came from Phil, may have discouraged someone from experimenting in an area that Thomas Jundt has proven was worthwhile.

And now, here in 2009 on this forum, Phil repeats himself with comments about manual altitude control that are designed to squelch any interest whatsoever in the idea-in the same manner as the comments in 2006 were designed to squelch ANY INTEREST BY ANYBODY in larger foilers than a Moth.

There is no intention to discredit more like amazed shock, disbelief and profound sadness and disappointment.

-----

2) Hostility!!?? Have you every believed in anything enough to study everything ever written about it from any source you could find? Have you ever done any development work that resulted in a new boat or new system being created from scratch? Well I have and I have developed opinions that I can usually backup and a huge database of foiling information from design, building to sailing. That doesn't mean I know everything but it does mean I'm constantly trying to learn and understand development potential in foiling as thoroughly as humanly possible. What it does mean is that when I hear(read) someone-anyone-making a comment that I know to be false or misleading I'm going to speakup -and I'll probably present information from my database to back up what I'm saying. What it does mean is that if God herself said:" manual altitude control of a foiler is impossible" I'd look up other comments she has made in the past to see what her history is on the subject of foiling innovation-and then ask:why? Thats not hostility- it is a desire to see a subject rigorously discussed by well informed people who can defend their position. Only by that kind of intelligent discussion can anything be learned. Calling that hostility is way off base.

It is not wired into my brain to accept ANYONE saying a thing can't be done when my study indicates that there is -at least- a chance can it be.

oh look someone's sounding hostile!!

Is there a pic of any of these foiling contraptions you speak of doug? To be honest I'd really like to see them, and how about some of that huge database of foiling information (please note: your own, not someone else's, and no numbers noone really reads them and i have no idea what they mean).

Also since your not going to the gorge to monkey moth for all the world to see why don't transfer the money used to fly you over there and buy you a nice digital camera instead so you can take heaps of loverly pics of your super, fantastic, terrible, fun foilers.

A real good project for you to show the world your tremendous abilities would have been to create a monkey moth and have some gun sailer to rip-it-up at the gorge worlds, if it worked then you could sell them to finance a multitude of prototype products. Sometimes in order to be recognised and appreciated you have to do the mainstream things right, really, really well.

 

BalticBandit

Super Anarchist
11,114
36
Doug Lord said:
[2) Hostility!!?? Have you every believed in anything enough to study everything ever written about it from any source you could find?
I'm telling you. DON'T TAKE MY WORD FOR IT.

Spent $150 out of the marketing funds for the Trapwing Skiff and take the contents of these pages to a Marketing specialist. Pay them for 2 hours of time and let them read through this stuff and tell you what THEY think of your attitude.

 

nutz

Member
220
0
australia
wind_apparent said:
Was going to join in the discussion, loved he photo of Bora...... dont get sucked in to this....... it's going the usual way.....
dont get sucked in to this....... it's going the usual way.....

dont get sucked in to this....... it's going the usual way.....

dont get sucked in to this....... it's going the usual way.....

dont get sucked in to this....... it's going the usual way.....

dont get sucked in to this....... it's going the usual way.....

dont get sucked in to this....... it's going the usual way.....dont get sucked in to this....... it's going the usual way.....

dont get sucked in to this....... it's going the usual way.....

Your bang on! I'm gonna stop commenting on your posts doug because you fail, you just plain fail. Unless of course your more amusing than usual.

Just like your quote from your post in the multihull forum "pics or it didn't happen", doug, it never happened.

 


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