Miami Race Week 2009 -Official repository for any information/results

MR.CLEAN

Moderator
And what I said was that if the A40 was completely sorted and had the tuning time, fairing job, and maybe Robbie Haines on tactics, we could have easily found another two or three minutes on the course, which would be more than the average time we lost to Soozal by.
Two to three minutes? That's a shit load of time to try and find on the course.
Not really if you do the numbers. We left a lot more than that on the course during some races. Shit, if the lifelines were more comfortable, we could have made up a lot of that in just hiking harder.
Not really between the fleet. It's about as big an expanse as the Grand Canyon when you are talking about the second place boat. Greater than 15 to 30 seconds delta is pretty damn big.

3 out of 3 of the last three years SBRW has been decided on one race. 2 out of the 3 the race had a delta of 0:02.
We put a stopwatch on Soozal when she'd get to the top mark. The delta from one rounding to the next often went up or down by 90+ seconds.
Exactly. Shitload of time.
Exactly. In just two legs. There was plenty of time to be found on the course. Unless everything you do is perfect, the ratings are mathematically perfect, and your competition is perfect, there's always a couple of minutes to be found. Most of the M32 races had 4+ minutes from first to last, and most of them had multiple pros, olympians, and world champs aboard their one-design boats.

 

doghouse

Super Anarchist
Exactly. In just two legs. There was plenty of time to be found on the course. Unless everything you do is perfect, the ratings are mathematically perfect, and your competition is perfect, there's always a couple of minutes to be found. Most of the M32 races had 4+ minutes from first to last, and most of them had multiple pros, olympians, and world champs aboard their one-design boats.
You are cherry picking examples. Over an average, a few minutes of time is impossible to find amongst top teams. The average deltas are in the seconds comparing team who sail at a top level and have top level decision makers. Anybody can pickup a minute or two in a particular race just by catching a shift. Doing it over the course of a series is completely different. You said Soozal averaged beating you by a couple of minutes.

 

Shife

Super Anarchist
7,657
12
The King 40 crew must be the best sailors, they won almost every race in their IRC class..... :) The SC37 got the shaft, what a bunch of BS. There is no way to beat a boat that was specifically built to a rating system.
Go back to PHRF you hack.
Nice! He makes a good point, though. We had to have some MAJOR screwups to get 3rd or 4th. Plenty of small screwups meant we'd get second. An absolutely perfect race when the breeze picked up enough to overcome the King 40s power advantage was the only way we could win one. It would have been interesting to see how 5-10 knots would have played out.
Welcome to handicap racing, Clean. The minute you find a $10k, 40ft Melges, with a interior that everyone's wife is happy with, you be sure to let us know. Until then the rest of us will continue racing the slow ass tubs that best fit our needs.

3_nihilists_large.jpg

'It's not fair! My girlfriend gave up her toe for that boat, and it has a shitty rating...'

 

MR.CLEAN

Moderator
Exactly. In just two legs. There was plenty of time to be found on the course. Unless everything you do is perfect, the ratings are mathematically perfect, and your competition is perfect, there's always a couple of minutes to be found. Most of the M32 races had 4+ minutes from first to last, and most of them had multiple pros, olympians, and world champs aboard their one-design boats.
You are cherry picking examples. Over an average, a few minutes of time is impossible to find amongst top teams. The average deltas are in the seconds comparing team who sail at a top level and have top level decision makers. Anybody can pickup a minute or two in a particular race just by catching a shift. Doing it over the course of a series is completely different. You said Soozal averaged beating you by a couple of minutes.
I agree that finding a couple of minutes may be impossible among top teams with perfectly sorted out boats that have no major brainfarts. But handicap boats are almost never sailed at that level - they tend to not have anywhere near enough boat-on-boat sail, rig, and boathandling development to make it possible, and certainly we didn't sail our boat anywhere near that level. Hence the conclusion that we could easily have cut 3% off our time during most races. It is awfully easy to give away a minute on a lousy start, 5 seconds on a hoist, 20 seconds on a douse, 30 seconds on a shift...

 

Shife

Super Anarchist
7,657
12
I agree that finding a couple of minutes may be impossible among top teams with perfectly sorted out boats that have no major brainfarts. But handicap boats are almost never sailed at that level - they tend to not have anywhere near enough boat-on-boat sail, rig, and boathandling development to make it possible, and certainly we didn't sail our boat anywhere near that level. Hence the conclusion that we could easily have cut 3% off our time during most races. It is awfully easy to give away a minute on a lousy start, 5 seconds on a hoist, 20 seconds on a douse, 30 seconds on a shift...
Ummm.....wait.... How messed up was I last week? I don't remember myself the rest of the 'Wave crew racing a A40 in Miami last week.

Stop while you're ahead, bro. You're insulting the guys you raced with last week.

 

doghouse

Super Anarchist
Exactly. In just two legs. There was plenty of time to be found on the course. Unless everything you do is perfect, the ratings are mathematically perfect, and your competition is perfect, there's always a couple of minutes to be found. Most of the M32 races had 4+ minutes from first to last, and most of them had multiple pros, olympians, and world champs aboard their one-design boats.
You are cherry picking examples. Over an average, a few minutes of time is impossible to find amongst top teams. The average deltas are in the seconds comparing team who sail at a top level and have top level decision makers. Anybody can pickup a minute or two in a particular race just by catching a shift. Doing it over the course of a series is completely different. You said Soozal averaged beating you by a couple of minutes.
I agree that finding a couple of minutes may be impossible among top teams with perfectly sorted out boats that have no major brainfarts. But handicap boats are almost never sailed at that level - they tend to not have anywhere near enough boat-on-boat sail, rig, and boathandling development to make it possible, and certainly we didn't sail our boat anywhere near that level. Hence the conclusion that we could easily have cut 3% off our time during most races. It is awfully easy to give away a minute on a lousy start, 5 seconds on a hoist, 20 seconds on a douse, 30 seconds on a shift...
I agree except the "in handicap racing part". IRC 2 in KW this year had about an average delta of 30 to 45 seconds or so. But I think that the fact you guys all came together just for the event probably had a bit to do with it as well. Had you had a week or so to sail together and you would have found most of that time I imagine. Still a good week for ya'll too. Having Brian trim couldn't have hurt either!

 

MR.CLEAN

Moderator
The King 40 crew must be the best sailors, they won almost every race in their IRC class..... :) The SC37 got the shaft, what a bunch of BS. There is no way to beat a boat that was specifically built to a rating system.
Go back to PHRF you hack.
Nice! He makes a good point, though. We had to have some MAJOR screwups to get 3rd or 4th. Plenty of small screwups meant we'd get second. An absolutely perfect race when the breeze picked up enough to overcome the King 40s power advantage was the only way we could win one. It would have been interesting to see how 5-10 knots would have played out.
Welcome to handicap racing, Clean. The minute you find a $10k, 40ft Melges, with a interior that everyone's wife is happy with, you be sure to let us know. Until then the rest of us will continue racing the slow ass tubs that best fit our needs.
Of course you will, and I've had a hell of a good time racing handicap on the 'wave as well as on dozens of other handicap boats. While the growth of relatively inexpensive OD classes will continue to bite into handicap fleets, and while there's no question that for course racing, at least, OD is just a hell of a lot more interesting, people will always want to race the boat they have and love. Hopefully handicap racers, event organizers, boatbuilders, yacht clubs, the yachting press, and every other stakeholder will work together on creative solutions to make sure that classes are big enough and closely grouped enough to make it truly fun. A 7-boat fleet of widely divergent designs racing W/L under IRC just wasn't it.

 

MR.CLEAN

Moderator
I agree that finding a couple of minutes may be impossible among top teams with perfectly sorted out boats that have no major brainfarts. But handicap boats are almost never sailed at that level - they tend to not have anywhere near enough boat-on-boat sail, rig, and boathandling development to make it possible, and certainly we didn't sail our boat anywhere near that level. Hence the conclusion that we could easily have cut 3% off our time during most races. It is awfully easy to give away a minute on a lousy start, 5 seconds on a hoist, 20 seconds on a douse, 30 seconds on a shift...
Ummm.....wait.... How messed up was I last week? I don't remember myself the rest of the 'Wave crew racing a A40 in Miami last week.

Stop while you're ahead, bro. You're insulting the guys you raced with last week.
Don't assume too much shifle. We were a communicative bunch, and the crew was well aware of where we fucked up and where we didn't. It was the second ever event for a brand-new boat that had zero tuning or practice time just before the first one, when some horrendous trucker damage on her way down to Key West meant that the three days prior to KW were spent making some shife-esque repairs to a giant chunk of deck and partners. For Miami, the main trimmer and kite trimmer had never sailed the boat, the tactician was rusty, the mast man was obnoxious, bald, and frequently hung over, the driver was chain smoking, the bow guy had a bum knee, the padding over the lifelines was fucked and we were hiking on steel, etc. etc. etc.

The guys on the boat know the difference between honesty and insult. Refreshing, actually. And the fact that we still got second says a lot about joubert-nivelt's knowledge of the IRC rule in this size range.

 
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Burnsy

Super Anarchist
3,140
1
Milwaukee, WI
Hopefully handicap racers, event organizers, boatbuilders, yacht clubs, the yachting press, and every other stakeholder will work together on creative solutions to make sure that classes are big enough and closely grouped enough to make it truly fun. A 7-boat fleet of widely divergent designs racing W/L under IRC just wasn't it.
Less but bigger events with better local and regional interclub coordination to increase turnout (which may require revamping traditional series schedules). Rum primarily P-P races to interesting destinations with a couple W/L weekends thrown in for boathandling practice & a change of pace. These things have a functional galley, head, & 6'6" bunks for a reason - camp out on the boat, wake up and make coffee, use them as designed & not just as oversized daysailing dinghys where the tools & spare parts inventory consists of one multipurpose screwdriver and 1/8th of a roll of duct tape to save weight. Design occasional oddball races that exercise broader aspects of sailing beyond the usual wind shifts & sail trim - like including a trysail/storm jib only leg on a windy day, or a "broken boom" race.

Really explore the studio space.

1208644484E4EbUIi.jpg


 

Manfred

Anarchist
570
65
North Germany
Welcome to handicap racing, Clean. The minute you find a $10k, 40ft Melges, with a interior that everyone's wife is happy with, you be sure to let us know. Until then the rest of us will continue racing the slow ass tubs that best fit our needs.
View attachment 102592

'It's not fair! My girlfriend gave up her toe for that boat, and it has a shitty rating...'
Shife,

great comment. Totally agree!

Done much OD sailing but cause of the needs doing IMS/IRC now. Hate the whinning about the ratings.

@Clean: what I read from your fantastic report (thank you!) is that the Grand Prix nature and the total commitment from most teams are turning off many "would be comers". It is also a nature of the very committed teams that you do not meet them hanging around in bars or else. Team meetings, crew diner, hotels booked with all the goodies lures them away from the "Fun sailors". What one needs is many more classes, many more amateurs to bring in some fun. Like Cowes Week or Kiel Week. My 2 cents. Don´t know if this wonderful sport is going down the drain with all these overcommitted pros and owners. Now you even find then in handicap classes. Is it just for the silverware or what?

If it is minutes between top boats in handicap racing, something is very wrong... Hasn´t there been a typo in one of the IRC handicap numbers in Key West??? Shit happens. Here we use to have seconds splitting the top boats. Either in Sportsboats ORC Club or in IMS with boats above 30ft.

 
Don't assume too much shifle. We were a communicative bunch, and the crew was well aware of where we fucked up and where we didn't. It was the second ever event for a brand-new boat that had zero tuning or practice time just before the first one, when some horrendous trucker damage on her way down to Key West meant that the three days prior to KW were spent making some shife-esque repairs to a giant chunk of deck and partners. For Miami, the main trimmer and kite trimmer had never sailed the boat, the tactician was rusty, the mast man was obnoxious, bald, and frequently hung over, the driver was chain smoking, the bow guy had a bum knee, the padding over the lifelines was fucked and we were hiking on steel, etc. etc. etc.
So what was wrong with the pit guy? Hmmmm??

 

NautiGirl

Super Anarchist
8,972
3
New Scotland
Don't assume too much shifle. We were a communicative bunch, and the crew was well aware of where we fucked up and where we didn't. It was the second ever event for a brand-new boat that had zero tuning or practice time just before the first one, when some horrendous trucker damage on her way down to Key West meant that the three days prior to KW were spent making some shife-esque repairs to a giant chunk of deck and partners. For Miami, the main trimmer and kite trimmer had never sailed the boat, the tactician was rusty, the mast man was obnoxious, bald, and frequently hung over, the driver was chain smoking, the bow guy had a bum knee, the padding over the lifelines was fucked and we were hiking on steel, etc. etc. etc.
So what was wrong with the pit guy? Hmmmm??
For starters, he doesn't smoke and he's not French. :lol:

 
Uh, Mr. Clean, your age is showing. You missed that Smylesca just joined SA just to make that post. Any special words of welcome?
Well he did call me a few special names during the week, I guess that passes as a welcome. And Clean, skip says that he didn't get to smoke as much as some during the races but thanks for picking up the slack for him.

 

pjrs

Member
496
0
Exactly. In just two legs. There was plenty of time to be found on the course. Unless everything you do is perfect, the ratings are mathematically perfect, and your competition is perfect, there's always a couple of minutes to be found. Most of the M32 races had 4+ minutes from first to last, and most of them had multiple pros, olympians, and world champs aboard their one-design boats.
You are cherry picking examples. Over an average, a few minutes of time is impossible to find amongst top teams. The average deltas are in the seconds comparing team who sail at a top level and have top level decision makers. Anybody can pickup a minute or two in a particular race just by catching a shift. Doing it over the course of a series is completely different. You said Soozal averaged beating you by a couple of minutes.
I agree that finding a couple of minutes may be impossible among top teams with perfectly sorted out boats that have no major brainfarts. But handicap boats are almost never sailed at that level - they tend to not have anywhere near enough boat-on-boat sail, rig, and boathandling development to make it possible, and certainly we didn't sail our boat anywhere near that level. Hence the conclusion that we could easily have cut 3% off our time during most races. It is awfully easy to give away a minute on a lousy start, 5 seconds on a hoist, 20 seconds on a douse, 30 seconds on a shift...
CLEAN, so your saying 'if only we had a sorted boat, together crew, sailed it well, the mast man had hair, and generally didn't f**ck up, we'd have won' Isn't that the idea?

Doesn't racing to a couple of minutes (for the top of the fleet in your opinion, less in mine) equate to a reasonable account for a handicap system?

From the front page -

"For a distance race, I get it (a mixed handicap fleet) - in fact, our Archambault 40 had a brilliant deck layout and very kindly motion, and a big interior with easy headroom for 'my 6 feet, 2 inches. I plan on trying to sail with Philippe and the boys later this year on a distance race - clearly something the boat will excel at (along with getting women)."

IRC offshore/distance is going to better though? Surely variable tide/weather conditions are going to favour one end of the class split more or less? Might balance out over the course of a long race, but unlikely IMO.

Again from the front page:-

"They are silly downwind on a windward leeward course, with tactics largely taken out of the equation since they point almost directly at the gates once the kite is set."

Which element of tactics exactly is this? The winds not shifting because you're sailing 165 TWA? You're not worried about clean air/giving others shit? A corner is still a corner and laylines are still laylines, just narrower, and you're not thinking about positioning at the gate? And on the other hand, upwind, you can't work out how to get off the start clean in a slower boat or avoid a lee bow? Admittedly IRC emphasisies strategy over tactics, but in a short W/L race, with small splits, not entirely.

I'm not suggesting that IRC is better than OD for top level racing, but that shouldn't be what IRC is about. I think most of your complaints are due to a low turn out/wide split, not IRC, a point you've made, subsequent to the front page rant.

 

L Z

Reporters
Enema blew two chutes? Awww, poor poor boys and their toys. God, one would think with all those paid slaves on board that you could get that piece of crap around the race course. What were they thinking??
They were probably thinking that you would you had been one of those "poor boys" (or with one of them) and be sailing that boat.

But since you were not... you wouldn't know a "piece of crap" from a TP52.

p.s. just catching up with this thread...

 
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Sol Rosenberg

Girthy Member
99,991
17,118
Magadonia Oblast
Enema blew two chutes? Awww, poor poor boys and their toys. God, one would think with all those paid slaves on board that you could get that piece of crap around the race course. What were they thinking??
They were probably thinking that you would you had been one of those "poor boys" (or with one of them) and be sailing that boat.

But since you were not... you wouldn't know a "piece of crap" from a TP52.

p.s. just catching up with this thread...
You have much catching up to do. You were aboard, right? Well good. Now you can come here and find out what really happened.

 



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