Michael Masi.....the worst PRO of all time?

[LeoV]

At the FIA price giving, no Toto nor Hamilton, but Bottas was there.

It does state in the sporting regulations (article 6.6) that drivers finishing first, second and third in the #F1 Championship MUST be present at this event.

After all his slick media trained words from Hamilton after races you would not expect that. When Max walked directly of the podium in SA he was a petulant child...

Horner on radio was awful ??? Try Toto, trying to stop a safety car in Dubai (Gio went off and parked his car). For god's sake, that is so wrong.

 

[EYESAILOR]

I think we need to be clear on this. Max did not steal anything from anyone.  This whole mess was caused by a decision from the Race Director. Max should have been presented with one last chance to win fair and square by Latife's crash.  If there had been a red flag and a new start from the grid ....Max would have given it his all in a 3 lap sprint, something he excels at. If they had followed safety car regs and the lapped cars had not been allowed to pass, Max would have thrown his new red rubber into every corner to pass the lapped cars and catch Lewis, and he might have done it.  

This "Oh he deserved to win....poor boy... " is BS.  F1 is not Santa. Max does nto ask for Santa, nor does he need it.  Max had a chance to win on the track, the right way, and it was taken away from him by Masi.   

Am I the only Verstappen fan with the self honesty to see this?    This championship will be forever tainted and it is not Max's fault. Max has to win another championship because he does not want to be the World Champion who got gifted a championship by the mistake of the Race Director.

It would have been equally unfair to go to court and give the championship to Lewis, because Max should have had a chance to win on the track . Even though the final lap was stupid, and a foregone conclusion, it gave me a small taste of what Max would have done if the race had been restarted properly. 

We will never know what the outcome of the 2021 season could or should have been. The fans were denied an exciting finale and both Max and Lewis were denied the opportunity to decide the champion by doing what they do best.......driving!

If Max had won, Lewis would have respected that, and congratulated him with heart. Max would feel like a true champion. Instead Lewis is putting a brave face on it, but inside he is gutted.

If Lewis had won, Max would have respected that, confident that this season had shown everyone he was on his way to being a World Champion, and they would have gone on as rivals with the highest regard for each other.   Instead, after the initial excitement, deep down , Max wishes he had won it the other way. He is already making remarks about how he had the better grip, when people ask him about the last lap. 

Lewis and Max gave us an incredible season. They were both champions and yet in a way, neither of them are.

When Latife first went off, I was whooping because it opened a door, however small the gap, I hoped Max could do something with it. But the outcome brought me no joy.

 

[LeoV]

This whole mess was caused by a decision from the Race Director.

It is deeper then that, the whole season was two highly competitive teams working their asses off. But it went too often to the stewards and on technical protests.
Both teams went to the limit of the rules, sometimes crossing them. Something we did not see in 10 years.

Not tainted, just a messy finish.

 

[EYESAILOR]

It is deeper then that, the whole season was two highly competitive teams working their asses off. But it went too often to the stewards and on technical protests.
Both teams went to the limit of the rules, sometimes crossing them. Something we did not see in 10 years.

Not tainted, just a messy finish.

Leo ,    I am a Verstappen fan from lap 1 at Bahrain. 

If you cannot see that the championship was tainted in the last 3 minutes at Abu Dhabi, then you have your head in the sand.

It had nothing to do with the monumental battle of technology and driving between the two teams throughout the season. Neither Max or Lewis crossed any lines when Latife crashed. Both were losers that night. It will just take longer for Verstappen and most of his fans to realize.

 

[EYESAILOR]

But this thread was about Michael Masi.

If there is anyone looking at Masi's future career through rosy tinted glasses, then they need to watch today's press conference with Toto. At 3.03, he is asked if he has spoken to Michael Masi since the Grand Prix at Abu Dhabi.

 

[fufkin]

I think we need to be clear on this. Max did not steal anything from anyone.  This whole mess was caused by a decision from the Race Director. Max should have been presented with one last chance to win fair and square by Latife's crash.  If there had been a red flag and a new start from the grid ....Max would have given it his all in a 3 lap sprint, something he excels at. If they had followed safety car regs and the lapped cars had not been allowed to pass, Max would have thrown his new red rubber into every corner to pass the lapped cars and catch Lewis, and he might have done it.  

This "Oh he deserved to win....poor boy... " is BS.  F1 is not Santa. Max does nto ask for Santa, nor does he need it.  Max had a chance to win on the track, the right way, and it was taken away from him by Masi.   

Am I the only Verstappen fan with the self honesty to see this?    This championship will be forever tainted and it is not Max's fault. Max has to win another championship because he does not want to be the World Champion who got gifted a championship by the mistake of the Race Director.

It would have been equally unfair to go to court and give the championship to Lewis, because Max should have had a chance to win on the track . Even though the final lap was stupid, and a foregone conclusion, it gave me a small taste of what Max would have done if the race had been restarted properly. 

We will never know what the outcome of the 2021 season could or should have been. The fans were denied an exciting finale and both Max and Lewis were denied the opportunity to decide the champion by doing what they do best.......driving!

If Max had won, Lewis would have respected that, and congratulated him with heart. Max would feel like a true champion. Instead Lewis is putting a brave face on it, but inside he is gutted.

If Lewis had won, Max would have respected that, confident that this season had shown everyone he was on his way to being a World Champion, and they would have gone on as rivals with the highest regard for each other.   Instead, after the initial excitement, deep down , Max wishes he had won it the other way. He is already making remarks about how he had the better grip, when people ask him about the last lap. 

Lewis and Max gave us an incredible season. They were both champions and yet in a way, neither of them are.

When Latife first went off, I was whooping because it opened a door, however small the gap, I hoped Max could do something with it. But the outcome brought me no joy.

Apparently Max didn’t get the memo about how he’s supposed to feel as the world champ and was busy back on the track 2 days later testing new prototype tires.

As for Lewis, that’ll be Sir Lewis.

 

[trimfast]

The average safety car is ~4 laps. Mercedes knows this and posted an article years ago about it and strategy in 2016. They plan for these things and if you listen to the Podcasts this year, Ferrari’s strategist talks about it as well.

https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2018/06/insight-understanding-f1-safety-cars/

You can blame Masi all you want for the inconsistencies this year, but you have to blame Mercedes partly for their own decision not to pit.  You can try to say they didn’t have a choice, if they Pit and Max doesn’t, and SC ends the race Max wins. But, if it goes green in that situation Lewis wins just like Max did. Either team could have lost it on the decision. Any other team could have also stayed out and jump Max for second, it just happened to be that didn’t happen. It doesn’t do anyone any good playing the guessing came of ifs and buts. It’s easy to place blame in hindsight. Masi probably was trying to do the best thing he thought at the time.  It bit him in the ass clearly.

Do I think they need to review decisions, yes. Do I think they need to have an ability to extend the race in a late SC, yes. Whether that is red flag, minimum fuel add, etc who knows. 

No fan should want the race to end under SC. That’s at least something everyone can agree on.

 

[IPLore]

You can blame Masi all you want for the inconsistencies this year, but you have to blame Mercedes partly for their own decision not to pit.

I am not blaming Masi for all his inconsistencies, others are doing a better job at that than I ever could.

I am criticizing him as Race Director for a blatant breach of F1 sporting regulations at the end of the concluding race of a tightly fought world championship.  Either he did not know or understand the regulations, or he got flustered and succumbed to pressure at a critical moment. Either way he will be out of a job. 

How would you fault Mercedes decision not to pit?  As long as the race was run under F1 regulations, there were three possible scenarios. Under all three of those scenarios it was the better decision not to pit. Two of those scenarios, involved finishing in the green condition.

Any other team could have also stayed out and jump Max for second, it just happened to be that didn’t happen.

Ummm.  Not quite.  Two teams did jump Max when he was in the pits.  The third place car, Sainz, was over 30 seconds back and could not jump Max, and did stay out. Then the Race Director waived through the cars that had jumped Max. 

It just happened that the Race Director ignored racing regulations, and that, my friend, should not happen 

 

[IPLore]

. 

No fan should want the race to end under SC. That’s at least something everyone can agree on.

Masi said the same thing to the stewards. It was misleading .  The Race Director had 2 perfectly valid options to finish the race without the SC.    1. He could have red flagged the race at any time while the cars were circling behind the SC. They had 4 laps to do so and could have run a restart with 4 laps to go.   2. They could have started behind the safety car with time for one lap, if they had not waved through the lapped cars.

 

[IPLore]

The other misleading statement to the stewards was from Red Bull who said that 48.12 uses the word "any", and any does not mean all.   In this case it did say "all". Further "any" meant "all" in this context because , what the  regulation actually says is that

when "the message 'Lapped Cars may now overtake' has been sent to all cars..., any cars that have been lapped by the leader will be required to pass"

In other words, the message goes to all cars , and applies to any car that has been lapped.

It appears the stewards ignored that argument, because they merely stated that 48.12 had not been complied with but 15.3 gives the RD authority to override regulations. I disagree with that interpretation of 15.3. It gives him authority of the clerk of the course, not authority to override the regulations. Competitors are entitled to rely on the regulations because otherwise how can they race?

 

[TheDragon]

Verstapen is not really the F1 champion, and he and everyone else knows it, forever tainted with an asterisk (won by egregious official mistake).

 

[Only Fools Rush In]

This whining about who is WC is getting a bit boring.

It’s just like the hand of God from Maradonna. It’s a nice topic for in a bar, but for the rest of the people in the world Argentina won. 

Time to move on. And put the hurt egos aside. 

 

[JMOD]

interesting difference between 39.13 and 39.12 of the sporting regulations about the timing of the safety car. See bold below. the restarts and safety cars is one area where the should streamline the rules. 

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/2021_formula_1_sporting_regulations_-_iss_5_-_2020-12-16.pdf

39.12  If the clerk of the course considers it safe to do so, and the message "LAPPED CARS MAY NOW OVERTAKE" has been sent to all teams Competitors via the official messaging system, any cars that have been lapped by the leader will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car.

This will only apply to cars that were lapped at the time they crossed the Line at the end of the lap during which they crossed the first Safety Car line for the second time after the safety car was deployed.

Having overtaken the cars on the lead lap and the safety car these cars should then proceed around the track at an appropriate speed, without overtaking, and make every effort to take up position at the back of the line of cars behind the safety car. Whilst they are overtaking, and in order to ensure this may be carried out safely, the cars on the lead lap must always stay on the racing line unless deviating from it is unavoidable. Unless the clerk of the course considers the presence of the safety car is still necessary, once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap.

39.13  When the clerk of the course decides it is safe to call in the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" will be sent to all teams Competitors via the official messaging system and the car's orange lights will be extinguished. This will be the signal to the teams Competitors and drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap

Also 42.12 after safety car a rolling start. safety car will enter the pit lane at the end of that lap.

42.12  If, after several laps behind the safety car, track conditions are considered unsuitable to start the race from a standing start, the message “ROLLING START” will be sent to all teams Competitors via the official messaging system, all FIA light panels will display “RS” and the car's orange lights will be extinguished. This will be the signal to the teams Competitors and drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap.

At this point the first car in line behind the safety car may dictate the pace and, if necessary, fall more than ten car lengths behind it.

As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the FIA light panels will be extinguished and replaced by waved green flags with green lights at the Line.

No driver may overtake another car on the track until he passes the Line (see Article 5.3) for the first time after the safety car has returned to the pits.

Each lap completed while the safety car is deployed will be counted as a race lap.

 

[dave-j]

Eyesailor said it best.  This isn't Max's fault.  I also believe the five cars between him and Ham would have simply moved out of the way and let him through.  Only the dirty air would have potentially hurt his lap speed.  However, the advantage of new, soft rubber might have offset that problem.  We will never know. 

Any F1 fan knows that the racing is much better when there is a true rivalry.  I'd say we have one now!  I would also love to see Alonso do well next year.  Such a great driver.  I think the dark horse may well be Ferrari.  They essentially gave up on this season to spend nearly full time developing a new car for the 2022 design spec.  Onward to 2022 and the new cars!

 

[nota]

do you guys know what the prize is for winning the WORLD DRIVERS CHAMPIONSHIP ?

ZIP NADA NOTHING BUT A TITLE

the TEAM prize is the MONEY based on the points earn by BOTH CARS/DRIVERS

SOME YEARS THE WDC winner does not even keep his job on the team

while the difference in 1st and 2nd in the TEAM points is about 20 million IN CASH

with the top team getting about 100 million from that fund plus other agreed payments

some have more to do with history then the years racing results like the red car guys getting

100 million just to show up every year while middle aged teams get ONLY what they earned

and new teams get to pay fees to race while earning NOTHING

SCREWY SPORT or as some call it the circus

 

[nota]

miami gets very lucky

most citys pay huge fees to have a F-1 race

only the postage stamp sized kingdom gets a free no fee race

and miami for some reason or other got a ten year deal FREE

WITH LIBERTY even paying for some of the costs

that is very odd in the world of F-1 racing every one PAYS

TEXAS has 30 million fee every year to run the race in/outside Austin

 

[IPLore]

interesting difference between 39.13 and 39.12 of the sporting regulations about the timing of the safety car. See bold below. the restarts and safety cars is one area where the should streamline the rules. 

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/2021_formula_1_sporting_regulations_-_iss_5_-_2020-12-16.pdf

39.12  If the clerk of the course considers it safe to do so, and the message "LAPPED CARS MAY NOW OVERTAKE" has been sent to all teams Competitors via the official messaging system, any cars that have been lapped by the leader will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car.

This will only apply to cars that were lapped at the time they crossed the Line at the end of the lap during which they crossed the first Safety Car line for the second time after the safety car was deployed.

Having overtaken the cars on the lead lap and the safety car these cars should then proceed around the track at an appropriate speed, without overtaking, and make every effort to take up position at the back of the line of cars behind the safety car. Whilst they are overtaking, and in order to ensure this may be carried out safely, the cars on the lead lap must always stay on the racing line unless deviating from it is unavoidable. Unless the clerk of the course considers the presence of the safety car is still necessary, once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap.

39.13  When the clerk of the course decides it is safe to call in the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" will be sent to all teams Competitors via the official messaging system and the car's orange lights will be extinguished. This will be the signal to the teams Competitors and drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap

Also 42.12 after safety car a rolling start. safety car will enter the pit lane at the end of that lap.

42.12  If, after several laps behind the safety car, track conditions are considered unsuitable to start the race from a standing start, the message “ROLLING START” will be sent to all teams Competitors via the official messaging system, all FIA light panels will display “RS” and the car's orange lights will be extinguished. This will be the signal to the teams Competitors and drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap.

At this point the first car in line behind the safety car may dictate the pace and, if necessary, fall more than ten car lengths behind it.

As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the FIA light panels will be extinguished and replaced by waved green flags with green lights at the Line.

No driver may overtake another car on the track until he passes the Line (see Article 5.3) for the first time after the safety car has returned to the pits.

Each lap completed while the safety car is deployed will be counted as a race lap.

Hello JMOD,

You are not looking at the version of the F1 Sporting regulations that were in effect at the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix. The FIA makes the regulations available here  and if you follow the link to the up-to-date regulations that were in effect, you get these regulations (issue 13.....your link was to issue 5,)

There is no substantial difference in the wording, but your paragraph numbers are wrong.  The relevant paragraphs is 48.12 (and 48.13) which were referred to in the protest and the appeal which was dropped.

To your points, there is not a contradiction:

1. 48.12 (same as your 39.12) only applies when the clerk of the course gives instructions for the lapped cars to pass the leaders.  Once he has given that instruction, the  safety car shall be withdrawn at the end of the following lap.  The clerk of the course does NOT have discretion to withdraw the safety car earlier , but can extend the safety car if he considers it unsafe.

2. 48.13 applies either (i) If the lapped cars are not allowed to pass, so 48.12 has not been turned on or (ii) If lapped cars have been allowed to pass then the CoC can give this signal at any lap following the lap after the lapped cars pass the leader.

3. Your rule 42.12 (51.12 in the current regulations) is not to do with a yellow flag safety car being withdrawn, it describes the option of how to restart a suspended race after the red flag.  

The bottom line is that at the very last minute, Masi waved through the lapped cars , and did not comply with Rule 48.12. 

The defense Masi gave for his actions in the protest is that Rule 15.3 gave the Racing Director "overriding authority" over all matters to do with the safety car, and this includes the authority to override the regulations.

In the appeal this would have failed for two reasons:

1. That is not what 15.3 says. It gives the RD overriding authority over the clerk of the course. The CoC may only give orders with the express agreement of the RD. It does NOT give the RD the authority to override the regulations.

2. The primary overriding role of the RD with regard to the Safety Car, is safety. If the RD fails to apply a safety car regulation, he or she must be able to demonstrate a safety reason for doing so. The RD is not entitled to discretionary use of the safety car to "make races more exciting".  Otherwise he could have sent out the safety car without an accident just to "spice things up a bit".

The role of the RD requires Respect, Trust, Maturity, and Calm analysis in the midst of chaos and pressure.  Masi clearly lacked these skill sets at Abu Dhabi.

His flustered exchange with Christian, showed he was starting to lose control.  The condescending , dismissive and rude words to Toto were the words of a fragile ego, who had lost his grip.

He will be fired.

You read it first in SA . Thanks to @Editor for allowing the thread.

 

[EYESAILOR]

Verstapen is not really the F1 champion, and he and everyone else knows it, forever tainted with an asterisk (won by egregious official mistake).

It is not Max's fault. What would you have him do?

The tragedy is we had a tied championship . We will never know what would have happened if the race had been restarted properly but it would certainly have been exciting. Whatever the outcome, both drivers would have respected the result , respected each other and it would be an incredible rivalry. 

Max finally has a competitive car....to challenge Lewis.....and then this pathetic RD tarnishes the whole season in 3 minutes.

 

[EYESAILOR]

Eyesailor said it best.  This isn't Max's fault.  I also believe the five cars between him and Ham would have simply moved out of the way and let him through.  Only the dirty air would have potentially hurt his lap speed.  However, the advantage of new, soft rubber might have offset that problem.  We will never know. 

Agreed.

I  think the real challenge would be the extra time and distance created by the 5 cars.  If we assume 0.4 of a second between each car as they restart and throw in an additional 1 second to allow for dirty air, then Max would have had to make up 3 seconds.

In the restart, Max started 0.4 seconds behind Lewis and finished 2.26 seconds ahead of Lewis making up 2.66 seconds .  But Max was able to ease up considerably in the last third of the lap (and you could hear his engineer telling him to take it easy)  .   

Either way, whatever would have happened would have happened in the very last corners.

As you say, we shall never know.  

 

[IPLore]

do you guys know what the prize is for winning the WORLD DRIVERS CHAMPIONSHIP ?

ZIP NADA NOTHING BUT A TITLE

the TEAM prize is the MONEY based on the points earn by BOTH CARS/DRIVERS

SOME YEARS THE WDC winner does not even keep his job on the team

while the difference in 1st and 2nd in the TEAM points is about 20 million IN CASH

with the top team getting about 100 million from that fund plus other agreed payments

some have more to do with history then the years racing results like the red car guys getting

100 million just to show up every year while middle aged teams get ONLY what they earned

and new teams get to pay fees to race while earning NOTHING

SCREWY SPORT or as some call it the circus

Nothing but a title?    The Title is everything to these guys .

But there is a little (or rather a lot) of cream on top. While it is true that F1 and the FIA does not provide any prize money for the Drivers' title, the title comes with a lot of cash.  Max will get approx $17 million in bonuses for winning the title which might be Nada in Miami but is a lot of dough even in Monaco.

How come the teams pay such monumental bonuses for winning the Drivers title, when they in turn get nothing extra from F1/FIA?  Because the teams get massive bonuses from their sponsors and advertisers if they win the DT.  Further, their prices for sponsorship go up the following year if you are a "contender".  It will cost a lot more to have your logo on Max's halo next year than it did this year.

The advertisers and sponsors are being completely rational when paying more for the DT than the CT. It is the battle for the drivers title that captures all the eyeballs and the greatest %age of TV exposure. The number of minutes when Hamilton's and Verstappens cars were on the screen exceeded the next 6 cars combined in 2021. Those are the two cars where you want your logo displayed.

When they film the advertising clip or host a speaker for their annual sales conference, the sponsors want the driver not the engineers (Sorry Adrian and Bono).  Since the sponsors company should be perceived as  a "winner", they will pay more for the winning driver, and their contract with the team will reflect that value.

The Title itself is probably more important to the driver than the bonus....but cash is significant.