D Wayne G
Member
I’m guessing that’s a wrap coming unwrapped.
Mighty Merloe
- Thread starter Bill Gibbs
- Start date
silent bob
Super Anarchist
But, this is Nomex:
SailingTips.Ca
Feigns Knowledge
If we want to look at the "right" way to do this consider Charles Caudrelier and his recent success in his solo racing debut in the Route du Rhum on Gitana.
Charles spent years honing his skills by sailing several thousands of miles on very powered up multis, including ORMA 60s and Gitana itself, pushing them to the edge with a full racing crew, and under the tutelage of some very skilled people like Franck Cammas, before he attempted to do the same thing solo.
This gave him the benefit of knowing the boat inside out and exactly where the edge was before he headed out on his own, and even then I'm sure he considered it an extremely risky proposition.
I’m old enough to remember when Francis Joyon went from relative obscurity to become the baddest mofo of all time. That first RTW effort was incredible, an ancient boat with an underfunded/unknown skipper shaved 20 days off the outright, solo RTW record. It IS possible.
MR.CLEAN
Moderator
- Moderator
- #246
And then destroyed the boat on the bricks after falling sleep on the short trip back home from England. Incredible. Still pales in comparison to Parlier's resourcefulness IMO.
Joyon was not unknown though.
VENDEE GLOBE HEROES: YVES PARLIER
a blog about Interesting sailboats, sail boat design, cruising, sail racing, sailboat tests, sail boat reviews and sail stories.
interestingsailboats.blogspot.com
Irrational 14
Super Anarchist
Time to put a fork in it - that's done. Bummer. Theres tons of water pressure in that area at speed. Hope he gets it repaired properly. Might be a challenge in Acapulco.
PIL66 - XL2
Super Anarchist
Joyon was not unknown... Legend
silent bob
Super Anarchist
If built properly, water intrusion into the core should be isolated. I wonder if that happened at Anacapa, or more recent?
Rasputin22
Rasputin22
- 14,583
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We built a daycharter catamaran in St Croix using nomex honeycomb for the hulls. That boat got flipped in PR I think in Hurricane Hugo. The USCG deemed it too water saturated (actually the deck mostly as the dinged hulls were out of the water for the most part) and wouldn't renew its COI, or certificate of inspection. Someone bought it cheap for salvage but took it to the Dominican Republic and started multipassenger daysails as there was no regs at that time.
A sistership (sort of as it was a trimaran by the same builder) had the same Nomex composite hulls. It got struck by lightning and dozens of tiny electrical discharges let water in the hulls. It got hauled immediately but water still got in and the USCG yanked its COI. The owner drilled hundreds of holes and used vacuum and paper towel wicks for months until he convinced the CG inspectors that the hulls were sufficiently dry enough to re-certify.
I suspect that the damage we see on the port ama of Merloe is from the Anacapa incident and was simply covered with a tarp while in Cabrillo. Like I said before 'Rode hard and put away Wet!'
Rode hard and put away wet
1)The phrase used to compare one's disheveled appearance to that of a penis which was still wet when he dressed after participating in rough sex.a)Originally, this phrase compared the clothing-covered, wet penis to that of a horse who was stabled without being tended, after a long day of hard riding .
Guy walks into work looking like he walked straight from the bed to the car. Coworker says: "Damn dude...rough night? You look like you got rode hard and put away wet!"
by SexyNurseMonica October 2, 2019
Definitely Anacapa, several months ago. I know, because I saw the boat up close the next day after the Anacapa mishap. Which means he has been sailing it like that a few thousand miles. I suspect he did a mickey mouse, band-aid repair job, i.e. vinyl wrap.
Fat Point Jack
Super Anarchist
- 2,595
- 477
Weren't the Stiletto's Nomex?
Rasputin22
Rasputin22
- 14,583
- 4,111
Yeah the Stilettos were Nomex. I have brought those hulls back from really bad shape a number of times. Now that I am thinking about it that charter cat may have been merely paper honeycomb used a a core. Nomex is some sort of resin impregnated honeycomb and is better from getting saturated. The real danger to hi speed multihull layups is when the skins get punctured and the hydrostatic pressure of 40 knots or so just rips long strips of outer skin away. That is sort of what I think these latest photos of Merloe are showing. I want to hear more about the 'collision' that Lawson mentioned.
Nomex is a flame-resistant meta-aramid material developed in the early 1960s by DuPont and first marketed in 1967.[1]
Nomex is a flame-resistant meta-aramid material developed in the early 1960s by DuPont and first marketed in 1967.[1]
Properties[edit]
Nomex and related aramid polymers are related to nylon, but have aromatic backbones, and hence are more rigid and more durable. Nomex is an example of a meta variant of the aramids (Kevlar is a para aramid). Unlike Kevlar, Nomex strands cannot align during filament polymerization and have less strength: its ultimate tensile strength is 340 MPa.[2] However, it has excellent thermal, chemical, and radiation resistance for a polymer material. It can withstand temperatures of up to 370 °C.[3]
multihuler
Anarchist
I have offered my assistance, and to take over the rescue, Donald thanked me, and has a composite team making repairs.
timotheysski
Member
VERY LONG POST UP AHEAD (written by a disaffected frenchman) / YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
Also, I'd like to say I respect Don and I think his work on diversity in sailing is commendable. I'm more interested, however, by the sailing/racing, which is what I'm focusing on here from a racing program point of view.
Met Don last year in March when he held the usual talk you might've seen elsewhere at the Bristol Yacht Club in Rhode Island. After overcoming the initial awkwardness of using the title Captain, he struck me as a really nice guy yet right off the bat he wouldn't dig into the specifics of his program or his boat too much. Pretty much didn't really talk about sailing before his talk. At that time, he didn't have a boat yet so I didn't think much of it: he probably hadn't gotten to know the boat too much. Being French, I've grown up in the French offshore racing culture and the ORMAs are by all means legendary boats, so I was super excited for him to bring one of these machines back to the record books. Thus far, everything glittered (cue joke about a well-known adage).
Then we listened to his presentation. After spending ~15-20 minutes talking about his journey in sailing and other sports, his "time in the Navy" and his infamous Captain title, he talked about his project for diversity and inclusion for US Sailing, bla bla bla, accessibility, you know the deal. Everyone at that point was supportive of the message of the program, and I think we all still agree that the intended message/goal is totally valid.
Then he got to the sailing part. After showing off his "captain's license" (not sure how that relates here anyways), he began with the Vendée Globe. He explained this race around the world nonstop that he wanted to do--sure thing, what a cool way to raise awareness. He showed us the old IMOCA he wanted to get and refit, explained he was being advised by the French greats including Michel Desjoyeaux. At that point I thought then surely for Mich Dej to get involved he was very serious about it.
Well immediately, he said there were now new IMOCAs that foiled and barely touched the water as they went around the world (anyone who knows anything about modern IMOCAs will know that's a misrepresentation) and pointed at the outriggers and the foils as the lift-producing devices. We all have brain farts but it was clear there was some uncertainty in what he said and he skimmed over the Vendée. It ended with him explaining a competitive boat is too expensive and he couldn't come up with funding. Unfortunate, but knowing the rigors of a Vendée campaign, no red flag from this.
That was when MM came up. He had shown many pictures in his slideshow but I had yet to find one that looked like a professional/serious racing environment, but sure, maybe he's just more laid back. Still my first thought was "wow this guy better really rock" if he wanted to race an ORMA 60 that the crazy Frenchmen had judged too dangerous to keep sailing. And they only did transats, he would go "around the world". But he stated the trimaran as "state of the art" and "the fastest trimaran on the planet". Sure, these are buzzwords, but again, anyone looking at offshore tris, more so one who is about to race one solo, would know the ORMAs are now dated compared to ULTIMs and are by far superceded in speed by these giants. Still, I thought it was a sound boat choice for a racing program taking on some uncommon records (he still said he aimed to better ~24 records at that point) that likely no other serious fast tri had tackled.
Still, he had enthusiasm but couldn't seem to nail any of the details about the boat or his plan that would make me go "yeah, this guy gets it, he could probably handle an IMOCA, and with some experience, an ORMA".
Honestly though, the whole thing collapsed when he talked about the records, the hallmark obviously being the "fastest solo nonstop circumnavigation". Many of the big records, including that one, are French-dominated, so I was now eager to learn how Don would take his 60ft tri from 20 years ago up against 100ft monsters fresh out of the yard. It soon became pretty clear he was either fooling people or had no idea what he was talking about.
After having declared going for the RTW solo nonstop record, he slowly slipped that it was not outright but in a category (most of the people I spoke to after the event missed that part and understandably so). He explained he was in the 60ft and under multihull category, and that the record right now was of 74 days. He constantly speaks of this 74 day record but that would be the 60ft and under MONOHULL record; as far as I know there is no "60ft and under any number of hulls" record.
Here are the RTW records currently certified by WSSRC:
- RTW Outright (100 ft IDEC Sport tri) / 40 days
- RTW Solo (100 ft Macif tri) / 42 days
- RTW Solo Monohull (60 ft BP8 IMOCA) / 74 days
- there is a solo women's, solo 40ft and under, and solo westabout which are irrelevant to my point here
Crucially here, our Captain's "record attempt" has no chance of bettering the times of 100ft tris and the 74 day record he says he will beat is not even in his category.
So he would be the first attempt at a 60ft and under multihull solo RTW. Nothing wrong with that, if only he didn't make it so muddled that he wasn't going for the outright solo record.
After some more talking about being the first POC and fastest American, the presentation was over.
I didn't actually expect him to get handed the keys to the legendary ORMA 60 formerly Groupama 2 but it looks like again, money talks and bullshit walks, owner got his tax writeoff, Captain Don got his racing machine.
There was a very very sound list of propositions earlier in this thread.
I see only one course of action for our dear Donald to have a chance at recovery, because surely money is tight especially given the extent of reparations needed on the boat. You will find some of these ideas are quite similar to Crump's Bro's list, he was the OG suggester.
- Somehow get the boat in sailing order by a professional
- Get the boat across to the East Coast/Chesapeake, wherever, preferrably by someone experienced and very qualified to sail it (unfortunately not Don and his wife)
- Use the boat as a way to get schoolchildren and kids (POC and from disadvantaged environments included) out to sail -- they will think it is cool AF, and work with yacht clubs or sailing clubs to follow up with sailing school / no point taking kids on an ORMA joyride and leaving them once they reach the dock
- (From the cited list) get a crew of inspring qualified sailors to do some racing on the East Coast and share their story with the kids
- nice the boat up once the program gets some money and open it to charters to make more money (get more people than just Don to help out because sailing-ly, financially, and PR-ly, it is not working out)
- prosper as you inspire these kids to become sailors
As many of you, I just don't see how the current solo record campaign, besides being a pipe dream, pertains to increasing diversity in sailing. Sure, we would get a POC in the record books, but there are better ways of engaging a more diverse group of young people than setting solo records from afar.
Moreover, I am very, very saddned by the torture MM is going through, but more so because Don seems to do his best to hide the boat's pain and his lack of knowledge as to what to do.
- One furling headsail ripped of without user error is extremely rare, but two screams of "I did the exact same thing very wrong twice in a row because I didnt know better/thought I was just unlucky".
- He claims they "removed the bowsprit because they use the J1 as an off-wind sail now". Let's assume this is true. This is not worthy of someone wanting to set records on his overpowered trimaran; a J1 is so very different from a Code 0 or the multitude of sails he could be flying from the sprit and screams of cruiser behavior. I suspect he either broke the bowsprit, got scared of the power of the sprit sails, or found it too complex to deal with. Still think he broke it, otherwise why go through the hassle of removing it instead of just not using it.
- Videos of "fast downwind sailing" show him on an untidy boat in 25-27 knots of breeze with bare poles going 11-13 knots. That trimaran is supposed to be going 25 at that point. That is nowhere near fast. Sure, he just got the boat, but surely J3 and third reef wouldn't have been too bad. I also very much doubt his claims of reaching over 20 knots with the boat when he states "going 15 knots" and puts "18 kts boatspeed" in the description while his instruments sit at 12 kts.
- In general, you can tell from the messy videos in strong wind and the calm weather videos where he is already sailing with 1-2 reefs, trimaran flat on the water, that he is absolutely not comfortable with the boat.
Yet if you listen to him, it's all "part of the process".
Disheartening to see he isn't open about his struggles and not accepting help from people whom I know have offered it to him.
I still have hoped that this can end well for MM, regardless of what happens to Dark Seas/Don.
In any case, if you read through this, you must be weary.
Here's a picture of MM being sailed solo in its former glory days which is how I'll always remember the boat:
Also, I'd like to say I respect Don and I think his work on diversity in sailing is commendable. I'm more interested, however, by the sailing/racing, which is what I'm focusing on here from a racing program point of view.
Met Don last year in March when he held the usual talk you might've seen elsewhere at the Bristol Yacht Club in Rhode Island. After overcoming the initial awkwardness of using the title Captain, he struck me as a really nice guy yet right off the bat he wouldn't dig into the specifics of his program or his boat too much. Pretty much didn't really talk about sailing before his talk. At that time, he didn't have a boat yet so I didn't think much of it: he probably hadn't gotten to know the boat too much. Being French, I've grown up in the French offshore racing culture and the ORMAs are by all means legendary boats, so I was super excited for him to bring one of these machines back to the record books. Thus far, everything glittered (cue joke about a well-known adage).
Then we listened to his presentation. After spending ~15-20 minutes talking about his journey in sailing and other sports, his "time in the Navy" and his infamous Captain title, he talked about his project for diversity and inclusion for US Sailing, bla bla bla, accessibility, you know the deal. Everyone at that point was supportive of the message of the program, and I think we all still agree that the intended message/goal is totally valid.
Then he got to the sailing part. After showing off his "captain's license" (not sure how that relates here anyways), he began with the Vendée Globe. He explained this race around the world nonstop that he wanted to do--sure thing, what a cool way to raise awareness. He showed us the old IMOCA he wanted to get and refit, explained he was being advised by the French greats including Michel Desjoyeaux. At that point I thought then surely for Mich Dej to get involved he was very serious about it.
Well immediately, he said there were now new IMOCAs that foiled and barely touched the water as they went around the world (anyone who knows anything about modern IMOCAs will know that's a misrepresentation) and pointed at the outriggers and the foils as the lift-producing devices. We all have brain farts but it was clear there was some uncertainty in what he said and he skimmed over the Vendée. It ended with him explaining a competitive boat is too expensive and he couldn't come up with funding. Unfortunate, but knowing the rigors of a Vendée campaign, no red flag from this.
That was when MM came up. He had shown many pictures in his slideshow but I had yet to find one that looked like a professional/serious racing environment, but sure, maybe he's just more laid back. Still my first thought was "wow this guy better really rock" if he wanted to race an ORMA 60 that the crazy Frenchmen had judged too dangerous to keep sailing. And they only did transats, he would go "around the world". But he stated the trimaran as "state of the art" and "the fastest trimaran on the planet". Sure, these are buzzwords, but again, anyone looking at offshore tris, more so one who is about to race one solo, would know the ORMAs are now dated compared to ULTIMs and are by far superceded in speed by these giants. Still, I thought it was a sound boat choice for a racing program taking on some uncommon records (he still said he aimed to better ~24 records at that point) that likely no other serious fast tri had tackled.
Still, he had enthusiasm but couldn't seem to nail any of the details about the boat or his plan that would make me go "yeah, this guy gets it, he could probably handle an IMOCA, and with some experience, an ORMA".
Honestly though, the whole thing collapsed when he talked about the records, the hallmark obviously being the "fastest solo nonstop circumnavigation". Many of the big records, including that one, are French-dominated, so I was now eager to learn how Don would take his 60ft tri from 20 years ago up against 100ft monsters fresh out of the yard. It soon became pretty clear he was either fooling people or had no idea what he was talking about.
After having declared going for the RTW solo nonstop record, he slowly slipped that it was not outright but in a category (most of the people I spoke to after the event missed that part and understandably so). He explained he was in the 60ft and under multihull category, and that the record right now was of 74 days. He constantly speaks of this 74 day record but that would be the 60ft and under MONOHULL record; as far as I know there is no "60ft and under any number of hulls" record.
Here are the RTW records currently certified by WSSRC:
- RTW Outright (100 ft IDEC Sport tri) / 40 days
- RTW Solo (100 ft Macif tri) / 42 days
- RTW Solo Monohull (60 ft BP8 IMOCA) / 74 days
- there is a solo women's, solo 40ft and under, and solo westabout which are irrelevant to my point here
Crucially here, our Captain's "record attempt" has no chance of bettering the times of 100ft tris and the 74 day record he says he will beat is not even in his category.
So he would be the first attempt at a 60ft and under multihull solo RTW. Nothing wrong with that, if only he didn't make it so muddled that he wasn't going for the outright solo record.
After some more talking about being the first POC and fastest American, the presentation was over.
I didn't actually expect him to get handed the keys to the legendary ORMA 60 formerly Groupama 2 but it looks like again, money talks and bullshit walks, owner got his tax writeoff, Captain Don got his racing machine.
There was a very very sound list of propositions earlier in this thread.
And I totally second this.
I see only one course of action for our dear Donald to have a chance at recovery, because surely money is tight especially given the extent of reparations needed on the boat. You will find some of these ideas are quite similar to Crump's Bro's list, he was the OG suggester.
- Somehow get the boat in sailing order by a professional
- Get the boat across to the East Coast/Chesapeake, wherever, preferrably by someone experienced and very qualified to sail it (unfortunately not Don and his wife)
- Use the boat as a way to get schoolchildren and kids (POC and from disadvantaged environments included) out to sail -- they will think it is cool AF, and work with yacht clubs or sailing clubs to follow up with sailing school / no point taking kids on an ORMA joyride and leaving them once they reach the dock
- (From the cited list) get a crew of inspring qualified sailors to do some racing on the East Coast and share their story with the kids
- nice the boat up once the program gets some money and open it to charters to make more money (get more people than just Don to help out because sailing-ly, financially, and PR-ly, it is not working out)
- prosper as you inspire these kids to become sailors
As many of you, I just don't see how the current solo record campaign, besides being a pipe dream, pertains to increasing diversity in sailing. Sure, we would get a POC in the record books, but there are better ways of engaging a more diverse group of young people than setting solo records from afar.
Moreover, I am very, very saddned by the torture MM is going through, but more so because Don seems to do his best to hide the boat's pain and his lack of knowledge as to what to do.
- One furling headsail ripped of without user error is extremely rare, but two screams of "I did the exact same thing very wrong twice in a row because I didnt know better/thought I was just unlucky".
- He claims they "removed the bowsprit because they use the J1 as an off-wind sail now". Let's assume this is true. This is not worthy of someone wanting to set records on his overpowered trimaran; a J1 is so very different from a Code 0 or the multitude of sails he could be flying from the sprit and screams of cruiser behavior. I suspect he either broke the bowsprit, got scared of the power of the sprit sails, or found it too complex to deal with. Still think he broke it, otherwise why go through the hassle of removing it instead of just not using it.
- Videos of "fast downwind sailing" show him on an untidy boat in 25-27 knots of breeze with bare poles going 11-13 knots. That trimaran is supposed to be going 25 at that point. That is nowhere near fast. Sure, he just got the boat, but surely J3 and third reef wouldn't have been too bad. I also very much doubt his claims of reaching over 20 knots with the boat when he states "going 15 knots" and puts "18 kts boatspeed" in the description while his instruments sit at 12 kts.
- In general, you can tell from the messy videos in strong wind and the calm weather videos where he is already sailing with 1-2 reefs, trimaran flat on the water, that he is absolutely not comfortable with the boat.
Yet if you listen to him, it's all "part of the process".
Disheartening to see he isn't open about his struggles and not accepting help from people whom I know have offered it to him.
I still have hoped that this can end well for MM, regardless of what happens to Dark Seas/Don.
In any case, if you read through this, you must be weary.
Here's a picture of MM being sailed solo in its former glory days which is how I'll always remember the boat:
Last edited:
timotheysski
Member
@multihuler out here doing god's work once again
Wess
Super Anarchist
I used to believe in Santa Claus!
PIL66 - XL2
Super Anarchist
Agree on all
Monkey
Super Anarchist
- 11,375
- 3,033
That was a long, but perfectly written post.
Yep, spot on...as everyone knows, one of the best boats ever built.
My favourite vid below, it is in flat water but shows the way this boat can sail.
Having sailed an Orma in a proper sea at full pace for 3 days it is my favourite ever sailing experiance, but I cannot even see how single handed is an option, I know the french have done it for shorter events, but around the world is not even an option for any individual at record pace I believe.
The boat is too powerful to manage for such a long period of time in my view, for any sailor.....
My favourite vid below, it is in flat water but shows the way this boat can sail.
Having sailed an Orma in a proper sea at full pace for 3 days it is my favourite ever sailing experiance, but I cannot even see how single handed is an option, I know the french have done it for shorter events, but around the world is not even an option for any individual at record pace I believe.
The boat is too powerful to manage for such a long period of time in my view, for any sailor.....
