Mighty Merloe

[boardhead]

, I did. Does not look like it will hold up strength wise, but those smarter than I can fill me in.
Honeycomb is light and strong, but needs to have an internal and external structure.

If that was my mast section or forward cross beam, I'd be nervous.

Yeah - you should be nervous basing your opinion on almost zero information as to the mode of failure, no clue as to the purpose of the honeycomb and guesswork as to the suitability of the laminate.
The spar was engineered and built specifically for the boat it was stepped upon, stood for over twenty five years of very spirited racing and blue water cruising, at least one severe lightning strike and a dismasting due to hound failure - must have been lucky!!!
The owner reported the mast fell when the rigging let go, broke near the base and the upper section was lost overboard taking the evidence of the rigging failure with it - maybe the Jesus shackle came undone, we will never know.

 

[he b gb]

Hang on to your hats kids and get the popcorn ready!

View attachment 593549

Huh?, seagull lands on radar dome and breaks it?

 

[mpenman]

Yeah - you should be nervous basing your opinion on almost zero information as to the mode of failure, no clue as to the purpose of the honeycomb and guesswork as to the suitability of the laminate.
The spar was engineered and built specifically for the boat it was stepped upon, stood for over twenty five years of very spirited racing and blue water cruising, at least one severe lightning strike and a dismasting due to hound failure - must have been lucky!!!
The owner reported the mast fell when the rigging let go, broke near the base and the upper section was lost overboard taking the evidence of the rigging failure with it - maybe the Jesus shackle came undone, we will never know.

All speculation but I'm basing my discussion on the picture that was provided.

Carbon Fiber wing mast missing the inner skin IMHO. Lightning does not remove that much carbon.
Outer carbon layers were the strength. If no inner carbon layers then why have the foam?
I'll stand by my opine on the foam piece and will add that if that is indeed the layup, then why?

I've seen some really, really shitty builds on masts and beams. If that mast was vacuum bagged and autoclaved, it should have been on some type of spindle. Hence my question as to why there is not an inner carbon layer?
What's the foam for in the first place?

You must have a personal attachment to the boat that I do not

And what the hell is a Jesus shackle and why do they call it that? (tongue in cheek of course)

 

[smj]

All speculation but I'm basing my discussion on the picture that was provided.

Carbon Fiber wing mast missing the inner skin IMHO. Lightning does not remove that much carbon.
Outer carbon layers were the strength. If no inner carbon layers then why have the foam?
I'll stand by my opine on the foam piece and will add that if that is indeed the layup, then why?

I've seen some really, really shitty builds on masts and beams. If that mast was vacuum bagged and autoclaved, it should have been on some type of spindle. Hence my question as to why there is not an inner carbon layer?
What's the foam for in the first place?

You must have a personal attachment to the boat that I do not

And what the hell is a Jesus shackle and why do they call it that? (tongue in cheek of course)

From my understanding the lightning evaporates the resin from the layup leaving a resin starved cloth?
That wasn’t a foam core it was some form of honeycomb core and without an outer and inner skin attached the core serves no purpose.

 

[longy]

A "jesus" shackle is used on a spar when all three main shrouds are gathered up by a large shackle bow, and the pin of the shackle goes thru a mast tang. All small multi's do this, eaiest way tom allow for rotation. As you get into bigger multi's, various other methods came into use

Jesus shackle

So I have the much maligned Jesus Shackle at the top of my rotating wing mast- and here is a crude pictograph of same: 0 b just to be certain, the forestay is attached to the 'b' and the shrouds to the '0'. This seems to be the 'unwritten law'?

forums.sailinganarchy.com

 

[boardhead]

Huh?, seagull lands on radar dome and breaks it?

Are you saying that singlehandedly sailing around the world, breaking every record in the book, is likely to be more stressful than supporting the point loading of an overweight seagull on the radar dome?

 

[Autonomous]

Are you saying that singlehandedly sailing around the world, breaking every record in the book, is likely to be more stressful than supporting the point loading of an overweight seagull on the radar dome?

Not usually, but when the decks look like a homeless camp? Yes.

 

[boardhead]

Thanks longy. The surging motion of the rig, particularly working to windward, can exert a turning moment on the pin in the jesus shackle. That can lead to the pin unscrewing with a force sufficient to shear the locking wire - even with enough turns to fill the hole in the pin shown in your picture! I know this to be true as I personally inspected the builder installed, fully lock wired, jesus shackie on a newly launched 44' tri I helped deliver. After only 400 miles the rig fell over the side and when the dyneema headstay was hauled back aboard it still had the straightened 20 mm Wichard bow shackle in the spliced loop. After that little episode I always used high strength Loctite thread lock and dyneema instead of stainless wire to secure the pin and never had a problem. The mast was undamaged and never had any issues over thousands of miles and fifteen years to date - same builder as Triad's spar. This thread is about Mighty Merloe's latest trial not a school for wannabe mast experts. As stated earlier, the honeycomb is not structural, Triad's spar is monolithic carbon, the honeycomb merely a spacer to increase the size of the mandrel. The mast was fully inspected after the lightning strike that blew holes in the hull and found to be undamaged which years of subsequent use, including a sail over capsize, proved to be correct. My knowledge of this and several other masts from the same builder stems from personally owning a high modulus version for twenty years, racing competitors so equipped (including Triad) and others on custom build trimarans, none of those spars failed. I also have encountered some awful carbon spars, some from respected name brands, so buyer beware!

 

[ExOmo]

so I don't know much but suspect the while folks have said the core is 'non structural' it is structural in the sense that it is there build section inertia/wall stability and without it the mast would fail by some form of buckling...

 

[he b gb]

I’ve always heard that the forces and loads on masts are better catered to with solid wall construction and that sandwich construction would be pretty useless, especially in compression. Might be ok for large wingmasts but would still probably need an internal spar.

 

[vokstar]

I’ve always heard that the forces and loads on masts are better catered to with solid wall construction and that sandwich construction would be pretty useless, especially in compression. Might be ok for large wingmasts but would still probably need an internal spar.

Sandwich construction is effectively a solid "wall". Using a material in the middle that is different, like honeycomb or whatever, is effectively increasing the wall thickness, while reducing weight and increasing strength of the mast.

 

[boardhead]

Sandwich construction is effectively a solid "wall". Using a material in the middle that is different, like honeycomb or whatever, is effectively increasing the wall thickness, while reducing weight and increasing strength of the mast.

Cored construction increases rigidity for a given panel weight.
Mast designs will vary widely for stayed or unstayed and with scale.
It's a complex subject which requires a high degree of engineering skill to reap the rewards offered by carbon construction over and above an aluminum extrusion. Not my field of expertise but one in which Triad's mast builder excels.
For a stayed rig the higher compression load concentrated on a smaller section will demand a thicker wall section which already has decent form stiffness which a relatively small amount of 90 degree hoop filament will further reinforce. At the loads involved any kind of lightweight core is added weight. The core on Triad's spar was in there only to increase the mandrel size to make a larger section appropriate to the loading that platform would generate (righting moment) it will never load up in service and is not structural. Any body want to start a new thread as we get to swamp MM here?

 

[Rasputin22]

The builder of that mast calls that sort of technique a 'leave in mandrel'.

 

[vokstar]

To get it back to the shit show... From his FB

Captain Donald Lawson is in Acapulco, Mexico.​

·

Happy Thursday!
The last 48hrs have been super productive and we have a special announcement coming next week about a new partnership that means the world to us!
First, got the fuel tank back from the mechanic as it was really bad! The bottom of the tank was black with all kinds of impurities from years of bad fuel.
Those kinds of stuff can clog up the engine and damage parts; having a clean tank is important.
Next, the wind turbine install continues on!
The electrician is installing the extra switch so I can direct the power from the turbine to various battery systems on the boat.
Boats generally have 1 battery to start the diesel engine and then a series of batteries that run the other systems onboard.
The start battery for the engine is only used to start the engine then it pretty much just sits there used.
To ensure the start battery never runs low from sitting there and to ensure I always have it charged to start the engine when I need to, we have created a path to charge the start battery from the wind turbine separately from the house batteries.
A number of you guys have asked about the wind turbine tower - The base of the tower is bolted to the hull with a triangle support structure bolted to the aft beam.
The tower is made of thick stainless steel welded together and will be connected with ½ inch of stainless steel cables to the deck which will provide 2 triangles of stainless steel support.
A mast climb is scheduled for tomorrow morning for me to inspect the shrouds cables holding the mast and then to remove the damaged wind indicator on the top of mast and replace it on the next climb.
On the way down, I will clean and inspect the mast track with rubbing alcohol to remove any salt and dirt.
On the next climb I will spray the track with an oil spray to improve the sails ability to drop when needed.

 

[jmh2002]

...On the next climb I will spray the track with an oil spray to improve the sails ability to drop when needed.

Yeah, spray that oil everywhere DL!!, after all this is basically an old tractor or bulldozer, rather than a high performance multihull...

And it's not like oil will collect any contaminants that will then grind up the ball bearings in the mainsail sliders as well as all the other low friction surfaces, and create a giant oily, sticky, mess or anything, right...?

 

[jmh2002]

I just keep shaking my head that a "Professional Solo Ocean Record Racer" like DL claims to be doesn't even know this basic stuff?

Before he fxcks this poor boat up anymore maybe someone should send a couple of links like this to his FB...

Soap and water wash/flush plus a little bit of the right type of lube (no, it is not a tractor or a bulldozer, please do not treat it like one...)

There are other options but it's easiest just to link to Harken in case DL thinks he knows better:

Harken Blockheads | Lubrication 101

harkenblockheads.com

McLube® OneDrop – Team McLube

www.mclubemarine.com

 

[david r]

So, a 100' mast on a 60' boat. Would it be possible to pitchpole on bare poles?
The 60' IMOCA boats have a 95' mast, but their foils really keep the bow up in the open ocean extreme conditions.
This trimaran would require special skills to keep upright in extreme conditions as rigged.
If he wants to limp around with all 3 hulls in the water he should sell the mast and re-rig the boat with like a training/rental style rig.

 

[vokstar]

To get it back to the shit show... From his FB

Captain Donald Lawson is in Acapulco, Mexico.​

·

First, got the fuel tank back from the mechanic as it was really bad! The bottom of the tank was black with all kinds of impurities from years of bad fuel.
Those kinds of stuff can clog up the engine and damage parts; having a clean tank is important.

Just thinking about this bit a bit further today.. Something seems a little odd about that, why would you take the tank out and take it to a mechanic? Also shouldn't their be a filter between the tank and the engine? And he's saying that the boat had years of bad fuel one assumes being put in it.. that seems rather odd too. And another also, wouldn't the cleanliness of the tank be one of the first things you check after getting the boat after it had sat around for quite some time, especially if you was planning some long passages?

I wonder if the engine problems he had was that the shite in the tank clogged the filter starving the engine of fuel and he had no idea how to clean the filter/replace it and reprime the engine.. But that could just me thinking a bit too hard about it all.

 

[jmh2002]

Just thinking about this bit a bit further today.. Something seems a little odd about that, why would you take the tank out and take it to a mechanic? Also shouldn't their be a filter between the tank and the engine? And he's saying that the boat had years of bad fuel one assumes being put in it.. that seems rather odd too. And another also, wouldn't the cleanliness of the tank be one of the first things you check after getting the boat after it had sat around for quite some time, especially if you was planning some long passages?

I wonder if the engine problems he had was that the shite in the tank clogged the filter starving the engine of fuel and he had no idea how to clean the filter/replace it and reprime the engine.. But that could just me thinking a bit too hard about it all.

Some replies to your points

- the fuel tank could be a complete mess inside from years of fuel bug, water damage, etc. Probably it was taken out and sent ashore to be thoroughly cleaned, and maybe even repaired
- yes there is normally a filter between the tank and the engine, in fact often 2, a prefilter (commonly Racor type) as well as the finer 'on engine' filter
- years of bad fuel, is more likely to be good fuel going bad while sitting in the tank, not used, not treated, not keeping the tank full (so condensation develops), etc, etc
- yes, cleanliness of the fuel tank, filters, and overall fuel system should be one the first things that you check, and fuel lines can be clogged too - once you have fuel bug it can create huge problems
- yes it's quite possible that the engine problems were fuel related as it's a very common problem, and sometimes race boat engines aren't always the best maintained, especially if they didn't use it that much (did they have a support tender, etc, instead? did the boat sit unused for long periods between races?), so there could have been multiple mechanical problems

But yes overall these issues should have been thoroughly checked and confirmed, and if necessary dealt with, before leaving. But it seems like he didn't even open the tank for inspection after he took over the boat, otherwise he would have known about the bad state that it was in - and that should immediately ring alarm bells about the rest of the fuel system too.

He may have thought he was going to sail more. He may not have understood (or checked in order to understand) how much power the boat uses just for instruments, navigation, etc, and the need to recharge that via the engine. He may not have realised how essential the engine would be for his way of using the boat, at least in delivery mode. He may have just been in a rush to start breaking records...

As I alluded to in my previous post about the mast track cleaning and maintenance - ignoring that he is no "Professional Solo Ocean Record Racer" despite his claims - clearly he is also just lacking a great deal of general yacht and maintenance experience too.

Many of these issues are nothing to do with an ORMA 60 extreme racing multihull - they are actually issues common to many boats, big and small, cruising and racing, and would be considered a part of basic and normal maintenance.

Sadly, it seems that he really doesn't have much idea what he is doing with so many of these everyday issues. And this is before he even gets anywhere near actually racing the boat...

Or he knows full well but is foolhardy and continues anyway. Unfortunately either option is likely to result in more fxck ups.

 

[steelmadesteamer]

Sadly, it seems that he really doesn't have much idea what he is doing

I still hope this guy will not sail too far away as otherwise he will kill himself or kill also his "first mate" at sea. He himself is real trouble and danger.

I still believe that what we see is just U-tube "movies" to entertain very special auditoria and this "creative experience" will end up the same moment money is over. Will keep my fingers crossed this happens soon.