Modified Columbia 30 info?

c56602

Member
58
12
Cayuga Lake
but we *never* bring the main to centerline before the kite comes across. it always comes across either just ahead or just behind the kite but is always eased and then brought on as we accelerate out of the turn.
I'll be sure to tell the main trimmer it's all his fault when I see him in 45 minutes :)

The thing that I think works with having the jib up is that there's always a little pressure pushing the bow down and giving us a little forward momentum. I suppose it probably helps keep the chute from catching big wind and knocking us over as well!

But we'll try this stuff out and see what happens! We need the wind to be right to try things!

 
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ryley

Super Anarchist
5,520
668
Boston, MA
c56602, one other thing we do in lighter air is actually hold the main out to the high side as the stern goes through the wind to help the boat turn before it comes across. YMMV ;)

 

95Terp

Member
219
17
Baltimore, MD
I was getting ready to type the same thing.  It definitely sounds like the main is the issue.  It's a big sail, but not so big that you can't just man-handle it across.  Have the trimmer grab all the line in the mainsheet purchase at once (between the boom and the traveler) and pull it across during the gybe.  That way you can control it coming across and it doesn't just slam over, but it's quick enough that it doesn't round you up being over-trimmed.  

 
Agree on the mainsheet centerline trim issue - this will counter your jibe everytime. Don't do that.

FWIW, we don't jibe the boat until the kite clew is ran across the forestay and nearly at the chain plates. Your bowperson can run it around and pull the leech down as Ryley states. They STOP just forward of the shrouds so that the boom does not take them out on the new side. Main is swung full arc but it's momentum is slowed slowed down by the trimmer mid jibe by grabbing the entire purchase as a handle. Another person is handling the runners, eased only when the bow turns down and the boat is unloaded, and new runner pulled on before bow turns up again.

This is the common procedure that lets the kite fill quickly and drawing after the jibe. Speed and technique are slightly modified for size and shape of kite as an A3 is easier that an oversize A2 which requires more finesseunless it's super breeze on, then we can do a blow thru jibe but that's another technique.

 

c56602

Member
58
12
Cayuga Lake
I think the runner would help a lot but I have to admit that it's pretty crowded at the back of the boat, already, during the jibe. Still, both the helm and main are busy doing other things... Well, lots to think about and practice!

 
As the helm, I usually handle the main downwind as well. So one less person needed in the cockpit and more on the rail to flatten the boat after the turn. If the runner is led a bit forward and outboard, someone on the rail can manage the runners and be out of the way.

 

c56602

Member
58
12
Cayuga Lake
Ah, but the gross tune for our runners are all the way aft - only the helm can reach them. The fines are forward far enough that anyone can deal.

Still... I can see how doing helm and main could work going downwind. Bringing the sail over might be exciting in wind but could work.

 

ryley

Super Anarchist
5,520
668
Boston, MA
My boat doesn't have runners. I want to see Irrational's setup before my next main is built to see if it's worth it, but the spreaders are swept enough on my rig that I don't think you even need them to come on downwind right away. I mean our backstay is usually on only enough to quiet the kite in chop.

 
Ah, but the gross tune for our runners are all the way aft - only the helm can reach them. The fines are forward far enough that anyone can deal.

Still... I can see how doing helm and main could work going downwind. Bringing the sail over might be exciting in wind but could work.
You'll need to change your runner setup.. gross should be managed by the crew, not the helm.

The fine tune can stay aft. On the gross, I like the clutch close and inline to the primary winch. It depends on your skill set but my jib trimmer also puts the new runner on the weather primary after the tack and gives it a quick yank, then locks it down with the clutch so we can cross sheet jib sheet when needed. I then can fine tune the runner upwind with the aft purchase to manage my headstay sag. Downwind there is no fine tuning on the runner, all gross.

In the pic, you can see where I placed my runner clutches forward (near the doggy). Anyone can access including helm if needed. IMG_0251(1).jpg

 
Rudder Talk-

These boats originally came with a cassette and blade rudder, similar to the Tiger. Just like the Tiger, the rudders were too flexy and wobbly. Kernan designed a Higher Aspect carbon rudder and ditched the cassette a few years later.

The new design provided more bite and balance. Fast forward to today and after pressing this boat harder than it's probably ever gone before, the old one was not up to the task.

Replaced with a Waterat (Tuttle) rudder of same shape except much better build quality overall. His work is insanely high quality.

thumbnail_65500226171__BE831E12-0208-440F-B544-75497D507F17.jpg

 

inhiding

Member
299
2
The Carbon 32 had multiple rudder failures.  And only 6 boats built.

Shaft was a frickin rectangle.  Maybe .75-1.0” thick on one side, 3-4” the other way.

The carbon fiber strands would explode under load.

Most inadequate!

 

inhiding

Member
299
2
“Completely different boat”………no kidding.

Seeing Kerman’s name opened an old and very deep wound.

Over and out.

 

c56602

Member
58
12
Cayuga Lake
I’m sure it would cost less for us to fly out and sail with you than to replace our (not very good) rudder. But, same shape? Then you’ll still cavitate at a 20 ° angle? Seems that have different connections and a different design would be better. At least, from the perspective of our boat!
 

c56602

Member
58
12
Cayuga Lake
Reread my post.

Old design = bad

Newer design = good
I read it again and am still missing something. It’s the same shape. So… It should behave very similarly, no? Oh, this one isn’t floppy or something but it doesn’t feel like floppiness has anything to do with why we cavitate and lose helm. At least, when steering it doesn’t feel like that! It feels like we’re way too far over for whatever that rudder can deal with. Isn’t that why some have switched to a dual rudder setup? I mean, come on! They must have had the issues we do. And perhaps the issues you had were different.

 
I’m sure it would cost less for us to fly out and sail with you than to replace our (not very good) rudder. But, same shape? Then you’ll still cavitate at a 20 ° angle? Seems that have different connections and a different design would be better. At least, from the perspective of our boat!
Quote above is not from me. Not sure how you managed that...

Please reread. Old original design (cassette)was shit.

Updated (no cassette/deeper) design was a huge improvement.

We went a step further and took that same nicely balanced shape but had it built to much higher standard.

 
I read it again and am still missing something. It’s the same shape. So… It should behave very similarly, no? Oh, this one isn’t floppy or something but it doesn’t feel like floppiness has anything to do with why we cavitate and lose helm. At least, when steering it doesn’t feel like that! It feels like we’re way too far over for whatever that rudder can deal with. Isn’t that why some have switched to a dual rudder setup? I mean, come on! They must have had the issues we do. And perhaps the issues you had were different.
To confirm, you have the cassette? That's a shorter blade.

 

c56602

Member
58
12
Cayuga Lake
I’m not quoting any longer and I don’t know :)  What’s a cassette? Ours is 5 or 6 feet tall and doesn’t have any bite at all after around 20° of heel. Boat is 15 years old and we’re the 5th owners so I’m guessing that every other owner has thought it was crap, too. Alas! I’m going to have to delete my entire Sailing Anarchy profile when I try to sell this gem :)  Ours is not easy to sail and does not sail like anyone expects a boat to sail. We’re going to work on various things (“properly” tuning the mast, getting runners that work better) but the rudder will still be the same and I imagine very easily that we’ll still cavitate and lose helm at 20° of heel after any changes we make.

 

c56602

Member
58
12
Cayuga Lake
@Irrational 14So, we pull the rudder after racing. That must mean that we have the cassette. The rudder does wobble quite a bit... Wanna shoot me some kind of reference on Waterat or should I just call? Yours looks fancy and all but you must leave that in when not sailing, right?

 

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