Modified Columbia 30 info?

c56602 - It sounds like you have a cassette...

The rudder blade slides into the cassette. The cassette is always attached to the transom. Does it look similar to the photo?

The wobble you are describing can definitely compromise your performance and helm control and it's certainly not fast. This problem is synonymous with many cassettes, especially the early Columbias and Flying Tigers. It should have nearly ZERO play fore/aft and side to side. If it is moving around, you are at the mercy of wherever the rudder wants to go. The crew is simply along for the ride. You can fix this issue by having the blade 100% down and locked into this position so it does not rise up. A retainer line helps for this. Repacking the cassette with carpet, webbing, or even better, Spartite to remove any play is also required. No boat should have any play in the rudder. This is the most economical solution if you intend to keep the original rudder.

The ultimate solution is an upgraded rudder without the cassette that is higher aspect and stiffer. It offers more direct and precise control. It's also more balanced since the leading edge is forward of pivot point. This means less fatigue on helm. Excluding the cassette also removes weight at the back of the boat. All good things. Most C30's and 32's now have the newer High Aspect or similar version thereof. Several builders including Bett's/CCI/Waterat all have some version of the new design now in their files. Betts has the most span (largest). CCI has the least. Waterat is in the middle.

I chose to have a slick finish on the new rudder so I don't use any bottom paint, just Mclube. It gets pulled and stored in a case when not in use. This rudder is designed for a single pin which locks into the top of the head but I have not finished this mod yet.

You definitely need to sort out your issue. Happy to help. PM me your email and I can send you some more info.

thumbnail_IMG_0658.jpg

 

c56602

Member
58
12
Cayuga Lake
c56602 - It sounds like you have a cassette...
We definitely have a cassette. But, ha, it feels like our rudder wobbles are coming from the hinges and not the cassette itself...

But, yeah. We're going to be sure to contact the mast manufacturer and make sure we're tuned properly for next season so that we can eliminate that as one of our rounding-up issues. Having a different rudder would sure help with losing helm altogether (cavitating)... 

 

ryley

Super Anarchist
5,520
668
Boston, MA
Quote above is not from me. Not sure how you managed that...

Please reread. Old original design (cassette)was shit.

Updated (no cassette/deeper) design was a huge improvement.

We went a step further and took that same nicely balanced shape but had it built to much higher standard.
we did this too when both of the rudders that came with the boat broke. the original wasn't a cassette but it was a crap shape. the second was a phil's and the shape was good but the construction let us down. The last was based on the phil's shape but updated with a convex shape similar to the Farr 40, as well as a carbon spar running the entire length of the rudder. It definitely helps.

But even the original rudder didn't lead to incessant roundups.

 

c56602

Member
58
12
Cayuga Lake
OK, OK. Fine. We're doing OK out there. We're learning and handling things a lot better. At this time last year we were in the same regatta (our first with this boat) and we bailed out when the winds went over 18kts (they went to 25 plus gusts).

We've figured out our backstays. have added a reef and have gotten a lot of sailing in on the boat - things are much improved. The picture, below, is from yesterday around when it was blowing 25 (gusting 32). That's with the chicken chute (A5), double reef and the jib up (to help keep things under control). This setup worked great. Looks like our max speed was only 10kts but the wind was crazy variable where we were and I think we did just fine.

Now we get to think about the upgrades we're making over the winter... Install motor mounts, get a new jib, think about this darned rudder...

frost 9.jpg

 

c56602

Member
58
12
Cayuga Lake
If your max speed is only 10knts in 25knts of breeze you should not be posting this in SBA.......
:)  Ah, man! Come on! Lake sailing with swirly wind ain't all that. When the weather station was showing ~15 gusting 20 we were doing 12... But that wind was channeled down the lake. This weekend it was coming over the hills and crazy stuff was going on...

 

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
44,382
9,661
Eastern NC
If your max speed is only 10knts in 25knts of breeze you should not be posting this in SBA.......
I hesitate to jump into this thread, but I've done some sailing on gusty lakes with big wind transients.

There is a huge difference between 25 kts of wind, and under 10 with gusts of 25 that last 5 to 10 seconds and often come from 30 degrees off the persistent wind direction (if any). The first priority is to keep the boat alive, 2nd is to keep it moving under control, 3rd is to get acceleration out of the gust, if possible.

Once in a while a gust hits like a hammer from the right direction to just make the boat POP! forward like a Road Runner cartoon. That's the really fun part.

FB- Doug

 

c56602

Member
58
12
Cayuga Lake
I was just fucking with him, but the post does say "blowing 25 (gusting 32)"
LOL. I don't really know what the wind was where we were - I don't have instruments. Races were Sunday 10-4 so you check here:

https://www.windalert.com/spot/166152

That is on the east side of the lake but the wind was west - coming over a big hill. 

We kept things under control better than we did last year -> we kept sailing the boat when it got windy. Small steps!

 
The vang is a key control in any squaretop mainsail and yours looks way too tight in that picture. 

To much vang and you will create a massive shit fight for control between the main and the rudder.  Your leeches should be somewhat balanced. Jib and kite are in harmony, main leech is not.

Find a video of Melges 24 or Viper racing in breeze and you will see mainsails with open leeches allowing the helmsman to steer the boat through waves and changes in velocity.  

I think I sailed against that same boat in NH a few years ago (Wet Paint?) and you are about 5 knots off the pace in similar breeze - no kidding.   

 

c56602

Member
58
12
Cayuga Lake
I think I sailed against that same boat in NH a few years ago (Wet Paint?) and you are about 5 knots off the pace in similar breeze - no kidding.   
Yes, that boat. And... Lake sailing is both nuts and over for the year. I see what you mean about sail shape... Hmm. Well, it could just be that we had the second reef in as we generally aren't using the vang much. 

In the squirrely winds we were happy to be under control and moving in the right direction as that certainly wasn't the case for all of the boats on the water - and it wasn't the case for us when the boat was new to us!

And thx!

 

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
44,382
9,661
Eastern NC
Yes, that boat. And... Lake sailing is both nuts and over for the year. I see what you mean about sail shape... Hmm. Well, it could just be that we had the second reef in as we generally aren't using the vang much. 

In the squirrely winds we were happy to be under control and moving in the right direction as that certainly wasn't the case for all of the boats on the water - and it wasn't the case for us when the boat was new to us!

And thx!
It's not really a skiff but is definitely an "apparent wind sailer" so you might benefit from looking into Frank Bethwaite's book "High Performance Sailing" and study some of the differences in how to handle this type of boat. There are some basic differences in how these boats sail, and how older/slower generations of keelboats sail.

FB- Doug

 

ryley

Super Anarchist
5,520
668
Boston, MA
I'm going to chime in here.

We don't have a squaretop but we did on the last boat that was similar, and you need to learn to tame the main and shift down your jibs. reefing the main should be your last resort and generally not until it's 20+ steady. the main can look like crap and still do a really good job of driving the boat, but our best addition to the inventory was a J3.

18 is where the boat gets fun, and you shouldn't be on the frac in those conditions even if you are getting 25 knot gusts. just anticipate the gusts, get your crew to hike, drive down as SOON as you feel the boat heel. one hand on the vang, they should anticipate the gusts and ease the vang prior to things going pear shaped. We took out our frac kite halyard in favor of a second masthead halyard. If we were doing a lot of real offshore racing, we'd figure out the frac again, but probably by choking down one of the mastheads rather than running a dedicated halyard. and as others have said, you should be capable of 10 kts downwind with just the main in those conditions. 

This isn't meant to be hypercritical, I understand it's a new boat to you, but if you're trying to sail it like a 4 kt shitbox then you are going to continue to have control issues and sail underspeed a lot - your description of your jibing technique is a case in point. It took us a while to realize the fracs were hurting us and the reefs were too, especially upwind. But in that picture you posted, nobody is really where they should be. your crew should be on the rail packed together as far back as they can be without interfering with main and driver, and your trimmer needs to be back well behind the shrouds. you need to keep the ass in the water so the rudder can work, and the bow up so it can get on top of the waves. you're sailing that boat like a J24.

this video is probably the last time we reefed in a race, and this was our way-too-big A2. the boat that took the vid was doing 7.5, we were doing about 15. Note where the crew is. it was a steady 18-20 in boston harbor that day.




 

c56602

Member
58
12
Cayuga Lake
Well.... Let's get our mast tuned right to start with (ie. next year) and have our boomkicker a little higher and we'll reflect on things all winter long! I'm pretty sure we already have a copy of HPS to ponder...

And you've got to work with me on the picture... It was a random shot when we were crossing the RC. Anything could have been going on! The shot he took of the boat before this one is in the late part of a gybe and it looks like utter chaos (sails not trimmed yet). I didn't share that one!

But all of this is getting us talking a lot more about things and thinking about them. We'll see!

 

Jeannic2

New member
34
6
Saguenay
My C30 was fitted with fiddle ratchet blocks close to the cockpit winches. Someone knows what is the purpose of these blocks and what is the setup?

IMG_3238.JPG

 
Since it's a ratchet, my guess is these were the PO's system for routing two spin sheets forward (primary spin sheet and a change sheet). Its unnecessary and a bit clunky. Do you see any rope burns across the outside edge of the coamings? If so, it means these didn't work so well. You can swap these to the back of the boat and the existing padeye is in about the right zone for barber-hauling a code zero or sheet point for a small A5 if you have one.

 

MPongs

New member
Would love some advice from C30 owners here. I've just about owned my boat for 1 year, raced in a bunch of races and have basically accumulated some questions I was hoping to get answers to. 

Currently my weakest point of sail on the race course is going upwind. I generally have the speed but not the height.  

1. In light airs, what is the limit you can pull the traveler up to? is there such a thing as too high on this boat? does this boat still need some vang in light airs?

2. How many more degrees should one be able to squeeze out of the boat using an inhauler?

3. in 15 knots plus, what is the best way to de power? Traveler all the way down and sheet/vang accordingly or traveler in the middle and ease sheet?

4. Any suggestions on squeezing more height out of this boat?

Thanks in advance. 

 




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