bigfoots dick
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I admire your work. Please keep it up! Very very VERY well said. I'm interested in a legitimate response from Clean.
money wins!
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douglas
Super Anarchist
Unless you know the pro sports system, you can't really say that a po boy with talent will make the big show. It's the right place at the right time, with the right people watching.
When I was a teenager I wanted to play pro hockey more than anything. I played on 5 different teams thru the year to get more ice time. I was literally going from one game to another still half dressed in the car. I was trying out for several Jr teams at a time.
I was usually the last cut. It was either my age (i started trying out for Jr at 13), or lack of experience. I tried out for an elite midget summer league. It was essentially a scouting league. Got thru tryouts and hauled into the coaches office. Another goalie was there. Coach says he wants us both but has to cut one, and cannot decide. He pulls out a coin and flips it. I lost. The other goalie ended up playing for Edmonton, Toronto, and a few other teams.
The local rink I played at had scouts all the time. Don cherry came to watch us play. Lots of talent. Of the 5 goalies that had talent, 3 made the show. Curtis Joseph, Darren madeley, and Geoff Sargeant. I was #4.
One time when Don was there to see Curtis all he could say was "get him a bigger set of pads"
I tried out for a European touring team after that, and did my back in. Pretty much the end of my career.
When I was a teenager I wanted to play pro hockey more than anything. I played on 5 different teams thru the year to get more ice time. I was literally going from one game to another still half dressed in the car. I was trying out for several Jr teams at a time.
I was usually the last cut. It was either my age (i started trying out for Jr at 13), or lack of experience. I tried out for an elite midget summer league. It was essentially a scouting league. Got thru tryouts and hauled into the coaches office. Another goalie was there. Coach says he wants us both but has to cut one, and cannot decide. He pulls out a coin and flips it. I lost. The other goalie ended up playing for Edmonton, Toronto, and a few other teams.
The local rink I played at had scouts all the time. Don cherry came to watch us play. Lots of talent. Of the 5 goalies that had talent, 3 made the show. Curtis Joseph, Darren madeley, and Geoff Sargeant. I was #4.
One time when Don was there to see Curtis all he could say was "get him a bigger set of pads"
I tried out for a European touring team after that, and did my back in. Pretty much the end of my career.
bigfoots dick
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[email protected]
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JuanNephrota
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Laser1
Super Anarchist
Hobie Dog
Super Anarchist
Well to me it does not sound like the lack of money, loosing a coin flip or not being at the right place at the right time caused you to miss out on an NHL career. It was your back injury that did you in. If you were as good as you think you were you would have played in Europe and for there moved to the NHL.
douglas
Super Anarchist
Hobie Dog
Super Anarchist
Thank you kent_island! Exactly the the point I was trying to make when somebody asked, "show me a sport that does not take money to win."
Last I checked NASCAR team owners don't get to ride around the track on race day yet they are right there in the winners circle.
Perhaps that is why racing sailboats attracts a lot of rich owners. Cost of entry is high for anything over 20' so you have that but it's also a sport that the "rich guy" MFO actually gets to go along for the ride. And the bigger the boat the easier it is to "hide" the MFO. I think that is why there is so much push back on having pros on board with just the one armature owner or a few friends as well. There is a lot of, "hey I could have done what that kid did if I just had a bank roll like Daddy does." And for a lot of racers on this board they are probably right. Again I don't have a problem with it, guy can spend his money as he likes, and if you don't like it find another class to race in. I'll admit it racing against pros paid to sail on boats has little appeal to me. So although I could afford a Melges 20 or J/70 I have little desire to buy one as I just don't have the time and frankly the desire to spend that much time with just that one boat to be any better than middle of the fleet.
And one more thought from my overly long post yet again. Perhaps this is why the "general public" sees sailboat racing as a sport for the rich only? Not realizing that you can pickup a used Laser (pick the dinghy class you like) and race club/regional regattas for less than it takes to play golf. Perhaps???
kent_island_sailor
Super Anarchist
I think you just proved my point. You were doing OK until you got hurt. If you were one of the best players in Europe some NHL team would have wanted to sign you. I doubt you were getting beat by 14 year olds with rich parents 
My father was an incredible natural athlete. Despite being down in the bottom few percent as a child and having no chance to get anyplace near a tennis court, later in life he became very good at it very quickly.
NO ONE is getting very good very quickly at racing a sailboat, an F1 car, or a P51 Mustang. You need time and money to even get a chance to get near any of these things and a lot of time to even know what your potential might be. Even at the cheapest junior program with ancient boats that only charges $20/week, the kids need a parent not at work to take them there and they need to know such things even exist in the first place.
My father was an incredible natural athlete. Despite being down in the bottom few percent as a child and having no chance to get anyplace near a tennis court, later in life he became very good at it very quickly.
NO ONE is getting very good very quickly at racing a sailboat, an F1 car, or a P51 Mustang. You need time and money to even get a chance to get near any of these things and a lot of time to even know what your potential might be. Even at the cheapest junior program with ancient boats that only charges $20/week, the kids need a parent not at work to take them there and they need to know such things even exist in the first place.
bigfoots dick
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His silence is revealing of his true bullshit. I think highball should take a lesson from this.
CrushDigital
Super Anarchist
Jesus you act as if money is being discussed in a binary fashion. Obviously it's not. The question is not whether you can buy a win but whether you can buy an advantage.
If you take two equally talented kids, tell one to just keep doing what they're doing but provide the other one with every bit of gear and coaching money can buy, are you really going to argue that the second kid doesn't come away with a significant advantage?
If you take two equally talented kids, tell one to just keep doing what they're doing but provide the other one with every bit of gear and coaching money can buy, are you really going to argue that the second kid doesn't come away with a significant advantage?
fufkin
Super Anarchist
If an owner/driver in a pro-am class puts in 15 days on the water and 1 five day regatta a year he will still improve as a helmsman...just not at the rate of a pro/aspiring pro putting in 200 days. Perhaps instead of focusing on the owner being a passenger...remember he is still part of the crew and in a pro am class that's part of the allure for those who can afford it and those who are good enough to get paid at it. If the pros can pass along more than a few tips and the owner is a quick learner and highly enthusiastic...well perhaps thats a good starting point for putting a crew together in this type of class.
As for those who are yammering on about not having the time nor inclination nor funds to participate...there are many other classes out there for you to test and develop similar skills. And this thing about how money always wins...enough of this b.s.
Perhaps an example of say...Janica and Ivica Kostelic...brother/sister alpine skiers who have achieved results that have gone down in the history of the sport. They couldn't afford a lift ticket everyday so climbed...yes cimbed...for their training before the resort would open...at their fathers insistence who was taking the lead. They would finish their last training run as the resort would open and the 'mommy can you pick my skis up at the tuner' crowd was rolling in for their 'training'...at least this is the 'as legend has it' version and presumably they could at some point in their development upgrade their training situation.
Back to the pro am equation. Paid racers are a relatively new thing in the history of the sport. I suspect that the history of 'yacht' racing is replete with crews made up of a solid foundation of sailors who spent way too much time on the water and those owners who could afford to keep their crew spending way to much time on the water...its just that they weren't called pros.
I'm amazed that somebody wrote some book about how it takes 10,000 hours to get really good at something. How is this news? Why is this news? Maybe as opposed to 'show me a sport where money doesn't win'...it should be, 'show real sport that doesn't take a lifetime of dedication to get really, really good at'.
As for those who are yammering on about not having the time nor inclination nor funds to participate...there are many other classes out there for you to test and develop similar skills. And this thing about how money always wins...enough of this b.s.
Perhaps an example of say...Janica and Ivica Kostelic...brother/sister alpine skiers who have achieved results that have gone down in the history of the sport. They couldn't afford a lift ticket everyday so climbed...yes cimbed...for their training before the resort would open...at their fathers insistence who was taking the lead. They would finish their last training run as the resort would open and the 'mommy can you pick my skis up at the tuner' crowd was rolling in for their 'training'...at least this is the 'as legend has it' version and presumably they could at some point in their development upgrade their training situation.
Back to the pro am equation. Paid racers are a relatively new thing in the history of the sport. I suspect that the history of 'yacht' racing is replete with crews made up of a solid foundation of sailors who spent way too much time on the water and those owners who could afford to keep their crew spending way to much time on the water...its just that they weren't called pros.
I'm amazed that somebody wrote some book about how it takes 10,000 hours to get really good at something. How is this news? Why is this news? Maybe as opposed to 'show me a sport where money doesn't win'...it should be, 'show real sport that doesn't take a lifetime of dedication to get really, really good at'.
kent_island_sailor
Super Anarchist
FTFY. Original yacht racing crews were mainly paid.I have a memoir from a family friend about a trans-Atlantic race she went on where the crew went on strike right before the start over not enough bonus cash if they won. Sandbagger* crews were doing it for money and were famously susceptible to being bribed (aka sandbagging). Big money was bet on the outcome of those races. America's Cup entries were powered by paid-for Swedish Steam.
The Corinthian movement was all about getting the paid riff-raff off the boat to be replaced by Muffy and Biff's friends from the club. Maybe not as good, but the right sort of people wink-wink
We then moved on to 1970s era crew that was not paid to race per se, but paid a lot to clean the boat or sell them sails they didn't need or other such bullshit. This was pretty much restricted to the upper end of the fleet.
Eventually it got too hard to prove who was being paid to be a winch polisher for real and who was being paid to sail and we went to the system we have now.
* Sandbagger = 19th century version of an Aussie skiff
The Corinthian movement was all about getting the paid riff-raff off the boat to be replaced by Muffy and Biff's friends from the club. Maybe not as good, but the right sort of people wink-wink
We then moved on to 1970s era crew that was not paid to race per se, but paid a lot to clean the boat or sell them sails they didn't need or other such bullshit. This was pretty much restricted to the upper end of the fleet.
Eventually it got too hard to prove who was being paid to be a winch polisher for real and who was being paid to sail and we went to the system we have now.
* Sandbagger = 19th century version of an Aussie skiff
fufkin
Super Anarchist
Thanks Kent Island Sailor...I was thinking of the more recent history you refer to of not paying crew directly but essentially keeping them paid and busy on the boat/rig...winch polishing as you say...but in actual fact spent heaps of time on the water training and developing a campaign...in contrast to the current era of professional sailors for hire. The notion of making a living just racing...and not anything else marine related might not have been there in the 70s as it its now...also something like Olin Stephens building for a client just to get out there and race early in his career...the racer is making a living by building...interesting about the Sandbaggers...hmmm...hope the Audi Melges class doesn't show up on BET365...FTFY. Original yacht racing crews were mainly paid.I have a memoir from a family friend about a trans-Atlantic race she went on where the crew went on strike right before the start over not enough bonus cash if they won. Sandbagger* crews were doing it for money and were famously susceptible to being bribed (aka sandbagging). Big money was bet on the outcome of those races. America's Cup entries were powered by paid-for Swedish Steam.
The Corinthian movement was all about getting the paid riff-raff off the boat to be replaced by Muffy and Biff's friends from the club. Maybe not as good, but the right sort of people wink-wink
We then moved on to 1970s era crew that was not paid to race per se, but paid a lot to clean the boat or sell them sails they didn't need or other such bullshit. This was pretty much restricted to the upper end of the fleet.
Eventually it got too hard to prove who was being paid to be a winch polisher for real and who was being paid to sail and we went to the system we have now.
* Sandbagger = 19th century version of an Aussie skiff
shaggybaxter
Super Anarchist
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