Moonduster lost

[pipsqueak]

couple of things jump out to me, (not that my imput is of any interest to anyone).

first off, i could give a dang about the snubber; snubbers break, period. i've been anchored in (truly) too many hurricanes (not to mention named storms) to remember them all clearly and some of them, i went through several snubbers, sometimes stretchy line and sometimes whatever i had handy on hooks or tied directly to the chain links. for example i have used my genoa sheets which are hard as rock from age.

biggest problem: location sucked.

the idea of weathering half the storm in one place then running for a new locale is not one i would have accepted. (just me, not judging) but there is the crux of it if i have the story right.

i would have picked (if more than one option was available) the harbor with the best shelter from the strongest predicted wind direction. given a shitty harbour i would have made the most of it, i would never consider a move half way through.

never would i have hung to one anchor in a named storm.

i am 27 feet and carry 5 anchors. in a named storm i would have had at least 4 of them down.

i also am not a fan of the motoring to take the slack off the rode. i've watched boats execute this between curtains of spray..half the time they overshoot their rode and are yanking the anchor out. you can't see where you are in the thick of it as moonduster pointed out.

also, each yanking yaw of the yacht is telling you something. it is digging the anchor in deeper or it is jacking one of them free. you can hear it while you are fretting down below.

i also don't stay in the cockpit wearing a life jacket. nothing against it, just i go down below and take a few belts to keep cool and cut down on nerves and dart above to adjust my rodes for chafe and tanglement during the little lulls.

i know what it is like to be in a bad place with a hurricane coming. one time i forgot that hurricane season ends in november? and i sailed out in october and was very surprised when i heard on my ssb receiver that a hurricane had popped up 100 miles from me coming my way. i was lucky to sail into a little river, it went right over me and i stayed in that mosquito hell for 2 weeks after that i was too traumatised to come out!

sometimes having all this modern gear is not helpful, fancy weather info obviously can lead to false expectations and i haven't even a windlass to help me. i also don't have the enormous loads (or need the space) of a large yacht as jon mentioned. i keep my decks clear, (though i do put my rowboat on deck), no furling and little windage.

i've never had insurance and never will. i do not stray far (two days) from hurricane holes (when i remember it is hurricane season), because i am too afraid of the consequences of being becalmed in the dead zone that precedes a hurricane (that too has happened to me).

losing a boat is not a reflection of the sailor aboard; its a roll of the dice and can happen to experts.

i've seen idiots do well in hurricanes and experienced salts sink.

moonduster, i am so damn sorry you lost your boat.

i am glad that you seem to have somewhere to go.

good luck to you and your girl.

sorry this is so long and unedited.

oh yeah. fuck off dunderheaderino.

 

[Dan33]

It was our choice and ours alone. We accept the consequences and we'll move forward.
Now, could you do me a personal favor and ... fuck off?

I guess you didn't need me speaking on your behalf...

 

[joneisberg]

-gatekeeper- i've been a frequenter of this site for years. i've made several contributions to articles on this site over the years, also. yet i never found, in all that time, the necessity to register to be a contributor until today. until i read the 'tragic' story about moonduster.
i'm not here to sling mud. i'm here to attempt to bring some reality to this forum.

i need to make one point to you crystal clear - i am not some weekend warrior who seeks the safety of the icw. i rest well secure in the knowledge that my sailing experiences have taken me to areas of the world people don't even know enough about to know to dream about going there. i've ridden out storms in places without names, storms that make 60 knots look like a gentle bay breeze.

so, before you attempt to attack me based on the fact that this was my first post, would you be so kind as to actually think about what it is i am trying to say here?

and finally, what does it say about your 'community' if someone is to be judged solely on the date when they joined?

Who is this Twat?

"I've ridden out storms etc etc etc etc"

Yeah, on a second reading, el dude certainly has the sound of someone who has never really been there, done that - we've become well acquainted with that type around here, I'm afraid (grin)... I'd love to hear more about some of these Places Without Names, that nobody else even dreams about sailing to - but I'm guessing we might be dealing with just another sailing forum blowhard, here... "been frequenting this board for years, but never once felt compelled to post until now, blah, blah, blah..." LOL!

IMHO, one of the most understated aspects of cruising and seamanship, is the role that sheer, dumb LUCK plays in so much of what we do with our boats... One can do everything right, and still come out a loser when the gods decide to throw you a changeup, at the same time some totally clueless dumbass can often come through a sticky situation unscathed, without any sense whatsoever how close a call they may have just escaped...

If el dude actually ever HAS gone anywhere, seems he'd be a bit more appreciative of that fact... Wayne obviously carefully calculated the risk, but Shit Happened, and he came out a loser this time around. That will happen to ANYONE, if you sail long enough, and far enough...

 

[the_abandoned_brane]

Sorry to hear - bugger

man that boat has a nice ass on her.

 

[Marsh]

Hey MD. thank you for sharing your experince and thoughts on the loss of your beautiful vessel, we saw her on the water when you were last in New Zealand and admired her greatly, she was clearly in highly competent and caring hands,

As a result of your posts we are rethinking much of our storm anchoring set up and plans and we are much better for the experiences you have shared and the discssion your post has generated on this forum,

As for duderino I can't imagine that he has actually sailed a boat at all, but the type of situation he describes is the type of conditions you encounter in the higher latitudes where the wind forecasting re direction and strength is more stable and the ability to manage lee shores is greatly enhanced ... 40-60 kts+ in the Auckland Islands is very normal and manageable and the chance of ending on a lee shore is greatly reduced. Given the attitude of dunderino and should he ever leave a marina I hope I nver have the mosfortune to be anywhere near him on the sea, his attitude is a disaster wating to happen.

The initial reports that filtered down this way described a strategy the you had deliberately anchored in spot A were waiting for the eye to pass over you to move to spot B and I did wonder at that as a deliberate plan but you have clearly described the type of fast developing situation that requires an on the run strategy and in the case of the severe conditions you encountered a great deal of luck, and as the window of survival closes the only imperative is the safety of the crew, congratulations for managing the unmanageable and ensuring the safety of your crew, there are other beautiful craft awaiting your interst and care.

 

[craig]

Estar,
The cool thing, intellectually speaking, about the chain-to-rope splice that I use is that two of the three strands of the nylon pass through the chain link (or chain-hook-eye). As a result, there are four parts of the line bearing the load and so the splice is - theoretically - stronger than the line. I'd guess that linear math is a reasonable first-order approximation of the overall picture and if the 5/8 nylon is good for 12K pounds then each strand is worth 4K and the splice is, therefore, worth 16K - far in excess of the breaking strength of the chain.

Pinching,

I was amazed at how much and how fast the boat sailed about. The GPS speeds were REGULARLY in the 1 knot range. That said, the speeds decreased as the chain was raised from the bottom and we never experienced any sort of jarring motions (until we grounded on the reef), although the chain did occasionally throw spray, which suggests it snapped tight at times.

Keep in mind that Moonduster displaced in excess of 17 metric tonnes - likely 18 or 19 in "cruise trim". As a result, I'm unsure of how much can be learned when comparing to more modern race-oriented boats as they tend to be so much lighter.

I cannot begin to imagine how a high-freeboard, massive-dodger-with-bimini-enclosed-cockpit cruising boat would have performed under similar conditions.

Sorry to hear about your loss.

And thanks for raising some good issues.

Observations after a few months in 6800kg 44 foot racer cruiser in some windy places - you have to be able to control or limit the boat sailing off around the anchor.

A modern IMS type keel and rudder often produced so much lift that we would sail upwind a several knots until the anchor rode took up

Of course if really fresh you are behind a headland, hill or island and this means the wind is never from a constant angle to the bow.

So the gusts will hit side on a lot of the time and so the keel generates lift quickly.

After trying a few different options ranging from all chain to more lighter longer chain paradoxically it seemed best use shorter much heavier chain (30m of 10mm short link on a 20kg Manson Supreme) and 50m plus of 16mm good quality nylon and let the boat sail around with the warp doing the work even though at times the boat was almost upwind on the anchor

Certainly direct pull on the chain was very very rare which is your nightmare event

Although this year I might go to 20mm plus so as to create even more water resistance as the warp pulls sideways though the water

So I am fairly convinced that alot of traditional anchoring folk lore does not work to well with modern designs (especially high lift keels)

Lastly chafe is everything as it is inevitable that you will get close 90 degree pull angles and no bow roller can deal with this.

We use a custom made sock which goes over the warp and fits in the bow roller and every so often let another foot of warp through

So I am interested to hear other experiences (especially about modern boats)

Here is a pic we took check out the angle of the anchorline on the sharkboat!!

 

[Cruisin Loser]

Senor Duderino,
Now, could you do me a personal favor and ... fuck off?

I think that sums it up nicely.

 

[islandplanet]

Wayne,

Jean and I are, shocked, stunned, and saddened by the loss of Moonduster. Let us know if there is anything we can do.

IP

 

[craig]

Estar,
The cool thing, intellectually speaking, about the chain-to-rope splice that I use is that two of the three strands of the nylon pass through the chain link (or chain-hook-eye). As a result, there are four parts of the line bearing the load and so the splice is - theoretically - stronger than the line. I'd guess that linear math is a reasonable first-order approximation of the overall picture and if the 5/8 nylon is good for 12K pounds then each strand is worth 4K and the splice is, therefore, worth 16K - far in excess of the breaking strength of the chain.

Pinching,

I was amazed at how much and how fast the boat sailed about. The GPS speeds were REGULARLY in the 1 knot range. That said, the speeds decreased as the chain was raised from the bottom and we never experienced any sort of jarring motions (until we grounded on the reef), although the chain did occasionally throw spray, which suggests it snapped tight at times.

Keep in mind that Moonduster displaced in excess of 17 metric tonnes - likely 18 or 19 in "cruise trim". As a result, I'm unsure of how much can be learned when comparing to more modern race-oriented boats as they tend to be so much lighter.

I cannot begin to imagine how a high-freeboard, massive-dodger-with-bimini-enclosed-cockpit cruising boat would have performed under similar conditions.

Sorry to hear about your loss.

And thanks for raising some good issues.

Observations after a few months in 6800kg 44 foot racer cruiser in some windy places - you have to be able to control or limit the boat sailing off around the anchor.

A modern IMS type keel and rudder often produced so much lift that we would sail upwind a several knots until the anchor rode took up

Of course if really fresh you are behind a headland, hill or island and this means the wind is never from a constant angle to the bow.

So the gusts will hit side on a lot of the time and so the keel generates lift quickly.

After trying a few different options ranging from all chain to more lighter longer chain paradoxically it seemed best use shorter much heavier chain (30m of 10mm short link on a 20kg Manson Supreme) and 50m plus of 16mm good quality nylon and let the boat sail around with the warp doing the work even though at times the boat was almost upwind on the anchor

Certainly direct pull on the chain was very very rare which is your nightmare event

Although this year I might go to 20mm plus so as to create even more water resistance as the warp pulls sideways though the water

So I am fairly convinced that alot of traditional anchoring folk lore does not work to well with modern designs (especially high lift keels)

Lastly chafe is everything as it is inevitable that you will get close 90 degree pull angles and no bow roller can deal with this.

We use a custom made sock which goes over the warp and fits in the bow roller and every so often let another foot of warp through

So I am interested to hear other experiences (especially about modern boats)

Here is a pic we took check out the angle of the anchorline on the sharkboat!!

View attachment 125035

Just to show it is never like the text book, the shark boat is lying side to the wind partly due to gusts coming over the top of the island just to windward at different angles and partly due to significant tide flowing opposite to the wind

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

the idea of weathering half the storm in one place then running for a new locale is not one i would have accepted. (just me, not judging)

I agree, that seemed to me a radical plan, and one that assumes really accurate knowledge of the path of the eye, something my experience with hurricane Charlie taught me we do not yet have, even when the hurricane is right next to the US coast w/all our weather technology. I have heard too many tales of people who decided to do something during an eye passage and got caught. I wouldn't have counted on the weather forecasts being accurate enough for that plan. But, I wasn't there, didn't know all the variables, and from what I can tell Moonduster Wayne has probably sailed more in any given year than I have in my life, so....

However, having made that plan, I might have tried to deploy the second anchor in a way it could be quickly released for later retrieval when the time came to move. The idea of a drogue or stern anchor to help stop the sailing at anchor seems appealing in light of this incident. Keeping them from chafing, breaking off the rudder, etc, might be impossible.

Having been through one major hurricane (Andrew in Miami) I have decided to never, ever be hit by another one on land, let alone on a boat. Andrew was supposed to be weaker, and was supposed to turn. It was strong and came straight on in. Charlie was also supposed to be weaker, and was supposed to hit Bradenton or St. Pete. In Andrew, a guy went out to stop the transom door on a big Bertram from flapping, was swept away and never seen again. He stepped into 150 mile per hour winds and vanished instantly in a storm that was supposed to be weaker, and was not supposed to be where he was. You folks who ride these things out are nutz, IMHO. Get out of the way. WAAAY out of the way.

 

[Arcas]

I can actually comment on the drogue idea, albeit on a much more limited scale. Just returned from the bahamas for 6-months on a Dehler 29, and we encounted quite a variety of conditions. This is a modern-underbody, a cruiser-racer design from the late 90s. At anchor (we used a Manson supreme (35 lb), with 30 ft of chain and 100+ feet of double-plait line.

With this configuration and in any condition over 15 knots, we'd sail quite a bit at anchor. We tried to deploy a small drogue (originally for fishing boats to slow drift) off the stern regularly. Ultimately, felt it made a negligible difference. Probably not worth the time, although I continued to use it in high-wind situations. Also, it occasionally wrapped around the rudder unless the line was kept quite short.

The other issue with the mix of chain and rode in a boat with this keel design (L-shaped) is that in cross-current situations (wind-against-tide), we would wrap the line around the keel, and the boat would sit beam-to the current or wind.

Ultimately, we converted our 30 feet of HT chain to 150 ft, and that pretty much solved the sailing at anchor problem and the wrapping issue.

Truly sorry for your lost Moonduster

 

[Moonduster]

Regarding our plan to relocate the boat during the storm -

This is clearly not an ideal plan, but I continue to believe it was the best plan for the storm that was forecast. Had the winds been remained in the 40-50 knot range, we'd have been fine and relocating the boat would not have been very difficult.

Likuliku bay proved to be an excellent place to sit through the north easterlies. It wouldn't have worked at all in westerlies. You can see for yourself with google maps -

http://maps.google.com/maps?source=s_q&amp...mp;t=h&z=15

 

[Moonduster]

I don't believe a stern drogue would help much - the bow gets driven way off the wind quickly, something the drogue won't affect at all and the risk of fouling the rudder is pretty significant.

Some sort of riding sail might help, but hard to say in such strong winds.

The classic solution to this problem is called "Anchoring underfoot". One deploys a medium sized anchor vertically off the bow of the boat. Scope is, essentially 1:1. The idea is that this anchor is sufficient to slow the bow as it falls off the wind and allows time for the stern to swing in line. The boat still sails and tacks, but the distance sailed is drastically reduced. I've no good excuse for why we didn't try this technique.

Regarding running - the problem with this area in Fiji is that there are numerous reefs and the available charts are incomplete and not GPS corrected. In many large areas, including a 100nm wide band that is immediately to the west of the Yasawa Islands, there has never been a survey. Instead, the chart data is based on aerial photographs and, again, not GPS corrected. To have run west, the only viable option in strong easterlies, would have run a very high risk of putting the boat on a reef and us into the life raft. While this might be a reasonable choice with the USCG at hand, it's not a reasonable choice, in my opinion, in a part of the world that has no available SAR capability.

Again, the overwhelming lack of good options continues to frustrate me.

 

[Moonduster]

Here's a news story about a 68 meter cruise ship that also went on a beach - this just one island north of our location. Note the name of the ship - Reef Escape!

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0...84-3102,00.html

Here's a pointer to the company's web site with info about the boat. Note that its maximum speed is shown as 8 knots. I suspect that they were as underpowered for thier size in these conditions as were we.

http://www.captaincook.com.au/home.asp?pag...2D&mgid=185

 

[longy]

I wonder if attaching the drogue to the bow (or the chain) would be effective? When I ran a Baltic 51 across the pond & thru the Med, the ONLY way I found to stop sailing around small anchorages full of all chain boats (which just sat there) was to always use two hooks, about 45 deg apart off the bow. Many times I would have 3 hooks in the water to deal with a expected wind shift. All set-ups were of equal strength, & secondaries were bouyed off the anchor. To pick-up, we'ed drop off the 2ndaries with a fender tied to the made up rodes, pick up the main, then motor to the anchor tag lines & pick them up from there.

I never been in that much sustained breeze, nor in a situation where I might have to move in the middle of everything, but I've never felt safe with just one hook down. Too many ways for one hook to fail.

 

[pipsqueak]

some tourists took pictures of moonduster: http://www.offexploring.com/rose-bud/album...ne-mick/6915109

 

[Point Break]

I wonder if attaching the drogue to the bow (or the chain) would be effective? When I ran a Baltic 51 across the pond & thru the Med, the ONLY way I found to stop sailing around small anchorages full of all chain boats (which just sat there) was to always use two hooks, about 45 deg apart off the bow. Many times I would have 3 hooks in the water to deal with a expected wind shift. All set-ups were of equal strength, & secondaries were bouyed off the anchor. To pick-up, we'ed drop off the 2ndaries with a fender tied to the made up rodes, pick up the main, then motor to the anchor tag lines & pick them up from there.
I never been in that much sustained breeze, nor in a situation where I might have to move in the middle of everything, but I've never felt safe with just one hook down. Too many ways for one hook to fail.

My new boat sails a bit on the hook and I'm on all chain. In researching/experimenting with ways to reduce that I ran across a discussion on Cruisers Forum where several folks were strong advocates of deploying a drouge from the bow anchor rode just far enough from the boat to lie about 4-6 feet underwater all the time. The setup requires a drouge that stays open all the time to resist the sailing the second the boat begins to veer so as not to have the lag time associated with needing to open. I'm gonna rig one next time we anchor and see how she behaves. More than one poster who claimed significant experiance endorsed the method. All of them indicated no luck with any deployed off the stern.

And by the way.....my sympathies to Moonduster. You weathered something most of us never will (at least I hope I don't). I hope you get back on the water reasonably soon.

 

[paps49]

some tourists took pictures of moonduster: http://www.offexploring.com/rose-bud/album...ne-mick/6915109

She still looks in good shape there and the winches are still aboard. Must have been straight after.

 

[sailak]

some tourists took pictures of moonduster: http://www.offexploring.com/rose-bud/album...ne-mick/6915109

She still looks in good shape there and the winches are still aboard. Must have been straight after.

It is a little reminiscent of Hal Roth's grounding as reported in "Two Against the Horn." Unfortunately for Moonduster, no Chilean Navy to pull her off and no happy ending. It seems the only good thing coming out of this is the discussion and everyone rethinking their anchor setups. I couldn't begin to guesstimate how many times I have run worst-case anchoring scenarios through my head. The one that scares me the most is having to set the hook due to some emergency in one of the passes or straits around here where current can exceed hull speed. I think I would be using my nylon rode for that scenario! As for storms, fortunately I haven't had to test any of my gear in over 40 knots although I attempted to set in 50 knots once. In that situation the anchor repeatedly failed to set forcing me to run offshore, which turned out just fine. This story is a powerful reminder that there isn't always a clean escape. My sincere condolences to Wayne.

Another example similar to Craig's sharkboat. This is off Govt. Point in 25-30 knots. The sloop seemed to sail around her anchor a little, not too bad considering how far offshore they chose to anchor, but look at the pendant on the commercial boat that picked up the mooring! I assume that is wire.

 

[ULDBGuy]

She still looks in good shape there and the winches are still aboard. Must have been straight after.

Easy for me to say, but seeing some of the derelicts in WoodenBoat that get brought back to life, this may not be too bad.