mound of the hound
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nolatom
Super Anarchist
Why i prefer one-design racing.
In a fleet of say 20, you have 3 boats ahead or you and 16 astern, you actually know you're in fourth place. And you know right away if that tweak you made, or tack you split on, helped, hurt, or neither.
Call it instant gratification, or at least awareness.
In a fleet of say 20, you have 3 boats ahead or you and 16 astern, you actually know you're in fourth place. And you know right away if that tweak you made, or tack you split on, helped, hurt, or neither.
Call it instant gratification, or at least awareness.
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carcrash
Super Anarchist
Golf handicaps work well in golf.
We used to use golf handicapping in PHRF in Huntington Harbour, called it Huntington Harbour Handicap. Every regatta consisted of perhaps 4 races, and at the end of each regatta, ratings would be re-adjusted so everyone would have had identical times in the previous series. We had to introduce "ringer" adjustments so if a good sailor raced on a lousy boat (to help them sail better), the rating would get an often very large adjustment for those races.
Each person decided how full race they wanted to be. Race your Catalina 36 with the dodger up and a dinghy on davits, while another Catalina 36 is "full race" and the ratings might be 120 seconds per mile different.
The way to win was to improve over time.
It was a ton of fun!
We used to use golf handicapping in PHRF in Huntington Harbour, called it Huntington Harbour Handicap. Every regatta consisted of perhaps 4 races, and at the end of each regatta, ratings would be re-adjusted so everyone would have had identical times in the previous series. We had to introduce "ringer" adjustments so if a good sailor raced on a lousy boat (to help them sail better), the rating would get an often very large adjustment for those races.
Each person decided how full race they wanted to be. Race your Catalina 36 with the dodger up and a dinghy on davits, while another Catalina 36 is "full race" and the ratings might be 120 seconds per mile different.
The way to win was to improve over time.
It was a ton of fun!
I understand the math, but over time wouldn't your handicap get harsher and harsher until you ended up in the middle of the fleet?
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Mambo Kings
Super Anarchist
I'm going to state the obvious!
PHRF is not for serious racing. Its for going out, sailing around the cans with some friendly competition among mates and getting back to the dock to buy beers for said mates.
If you care about your rating or someone else's rating and think its important to win, or for someone else not to win, you are likely missing the point. The point is to let as many people win as possible. Especially grandchildren.
That is why Boston Yacht Club gets its Wednesday night PHRF series scoring right. (or at least it did when I lived there 10 years ago)
They added time penalties to the boats in 1st 2nd and 3rd, which lasted 3 weeks. If you came 1st in week 1, and then despite the penalty finished 3rd the next week, then by week 3 you were carrying a heavy penalty. Basically, if you sailed half way well, you eventually got a pickle dish on a Wednesday evening....and that's the point right? To make sure everyone who tries hard, has some fun and gets a trophy to help them feel good about being out there. If someone gets all huffy about trying to use a PHRF race determine who is the better sailor, or gives a shit about PHRF results, and wants to waste time fighting over PHRF ratings, tell them to relocate to San Diego .
Ive sailed in a lot of PHRF events and had a lot of fun. I've raced in a lot of one design events and had a lot of fun. I was careful not to confuse the two.
I know that Dennis Connor has won 2 Star world championships, 2 Etchells world championships, one bronze Olympic Medal and three American Cups. I have no idea how many PHRF trophies he has....and I doubt that he does either.
PHRF is not for serious racing. Its for going out, sailing around the cans with some friendly competition among mates and getting back to the dock to buy beers for said mates.
If you care about your rating or someone else's rating and think its important to win, or for someone else not to win, you are likely missing the point. The point is to let as many people win as possible. Especially grandchildren.
That is why Boston Yacht Club gets its Wednesday night PHRF series scoring right. (or at least it did when I lived there 10 years ago)
They added time penalties to the boats in 1st 2nd and 3rd, which lasted 3 weeks. If you came 1st in week 1, and then despite the penalty finished 3rd the next week, then by week 3 you were carrying a heavy penalty. Basically, if you sailed half way well, you eventually got a pickle dish on a Wednesday evening....and that's the point right? To make sure everyone who tries hard, has some fun and gets a trophy to help them feel good about being out there. If someone gets all huffy about trying to use a PHRF race determine who is the better sailor, or gives a shit about PHRF results, and wants to waste time fighting over PHRF ratings, tell them to relocate to San Diego .
Ive sailed in a lot of PHRF events and had a lot of fun. I've raced in a lot of one design events and had a lot of fun. I was careful not to confuse the two.
I know that Dennis Connor has won 2 Star world championships, 2 Etchells world championships, one bronze Olympic Medal and three American Cups. I have no idea how many PHRF trophies he has....and I doubt that he does either.
Bitter Gnat
Super Anarchist
We have two of them. 1st in Class C and Best Overall for the 1998 Beer Can Series in SD. He helmed our Schock 35 and I got to sit next to him and trim main on all 10 races. These were the years that Dennis went out and won each class in different boats. He knew what boats to "appropriate".
Mambo Kings
Super Anarchist
I gave most all PHRF awards to the crew.
There was an exception
Many years ago, there was a Boston Harbor series out of Constitution Marina, where we were one of an active small fleet of J22s participating in a larger PHRF fleet. Jack Carney was doing trim and for some reason he started to take the series seriously and was very excited when we won the season in our class and overall across all classes. Jack was an extraordinary talented sailor and sailed with me in some very competitive one design racing where we did well. The Constitution series was 5 minutes from work on my way home and something fun to do on a summers evening....and at first,Jack was up for it because it between his art consulting office in the Back Bay and his sculpture studio on Cape Ann, and it involved cold beers on Boston Harbor. So I dont know why it suddenly became important to him. Perhaps it was because he wanted to impress the cute blonde windsurfer called Cindy we had picked up to do bow? Anyhow it mattered, and he was insistent we all went to the awards dinner at the end of the season...... so we did.
At the dinner the Organizing Committee explained that they had decided in hindsight that the J22s could be scored separately as a One Design event for the season, and qualified for their own trophy , so that Division D and Overall went to two other boats. Jack was furious!. At this stage I should explain that Jack is 50% Spanish from Spain (mothers side) and 50% Irish (father's side), which is a heady combination, over 6'3", and a free spirited sculptor. When Jack does "furious", he doesnt just tap the side of his wine glass in annoyance.
In this case, he rose to his feet, strode to the podium, grabbed the mike and said "That is fu**ing bullshit", knocked our trophy and several others to the ground and strode out of the tent.
I walked to the podium, picked up the trophy, and the mike, coughed gently, and thanked the Race Committee, our fellow competitors and my crew "including Jack, (and hopefully you all have a Jack on your boats), without whose evident passion for the sport we wouldn't all be down here every Thursday evening"
All's well that ends well. Jack married Cindy. I was best man. They have two great kids at college. Last I heard Jack's day job was a very popular waterfront director at Corinthian Yacht Club and at weekends he is out in his studio with chisel and welding torch.
That's my PHRF trophy story.
I haven't been up to Marblehead in a few years, so if anyone reading this post is from Marblehead and is passing by CYC, please stop in Jack's office and tell him that Justin considered it a privilege (and a highlight of my life) to sail with him for a decade and that his trophy is lurking around Marblehead some place if he wants to melt it down and incorporate it in one of his pieces.
I know there has been a significant push to get ORR or at least ORRez there instead of the phrf craziness. VPPs aren't perfect, but if implemented correctly they will almost always be more fair than phrf. ORRez is not that expensive considering what people spend to campaign a racing program. There seems to be a lot of inertia to hold on to phrf which is really puzzling.
SailAnotherDay
New member
Used to race Wednesday nights with a system like this. Top third of fleet loses three seconds a mile of rating, middle third no change, bottom third add three seconds.
It was a challenge to beat a “OD” boat you owed 30 plus seconds a mile to, but it kept us looking for speed.
Hitchhiker
Hoopy Frood
notallthere
Super Anarchist
Controversial_posts
Anarchist
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Umm so why dont the rest of the fast PHRF boats just race in ORR or ORC class, leaving him as the only competitor in his class?
kinardly
Super Anarchist
My take: The bulk of this fleet is older production race cruisers who frankly wouldn't have the desire to convert to a new handicap system and potentially have to reassess their competition. It's an unknown and folks don't always embrace unknowns. At the time the IOR fleet in this area was beginning to sink slowly into the sunset the local yacht clubs were the exclusive domain of race organization. A group calling itself Cortez Racing Association (CRA)was established to open up participation to non yacht club skippers, drawing in many boat owners who had long wanted to compete but for whom the exclusivity and financial cost of club membership was an obstacle. Many of their boats would not have faired well under any type of measurement handicap system (IOR, IMS, etc.). Most would have faired well under the only other option to PHRF, the old CCA inspired San Diego Handicap Fleet (SDHF), however this latter would have penalized later, IOR inspired designs. PHRF was the readily available handicapping solution although it had always had that susceptibility to subjective interpretation. PHRF was never the ideal solution, it was the best method on the table at that time. But now, PHRF is entrenched and I think it's a "better the devil that we know.." kind of thing.
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robalex117
Super Anarchist
Not sure of how ORR is going but I think the future is ORC. Where I race I need to get three PHRF ratings, three different areas, plus my ORC rating. There is really no reason local PHRF is not replaced with the ez version which takes the same effort at getting a PHRF cert but is good everywhere.
It will certainly give a lot of people more time to go sailing instead of working on the local PHRF committees.
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robalex117
Super Anarchist
I agree PHRF is entrenched but don't agree with the devil we know. VPP's have come a long way from when PHRF was first introduced. Not surprising the biggest defenders of PHRF are the boats with gift ratings.
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