my Cup runneth under

dogwatch

Super Anarchist
17,226
1,792
South Coast, UK
Possibly yes. Innovation and momentum are two different things. Though arguably, foiling is turning up all over in places that hardly look to the AC. Surfing. Kite-boarding. Maybe it looks different in NZ where there's more consciousness of the AC. 

 

TomTom

Member
306
10
Switzerland
Technology is not the issue, these foiling boats are indeed awesome and a result of the AC technology arms race. However: the lack of variability resulting in inevitability is an issue as with one mistake = you lose. That makes the boats work, but the event not so. 

It makes for lack of spectacle, reduced tactical and strategic options, lack of opportunity for people to make a lasting difference through their choices, input or endurance,  lack of incidents and opportunity (and mishap) to come knocking, lack of heroic story telling. These are all things that all good sports events rely on.

And those restrictions are totally defined by the race framework, not the technology.

  • Longer races where reliability and endurance play a role and that allow strategic choices.
  • Longer, wider (or unbounded) race courses that allow the use of the water, wind, obstacles to shape strategy (and no stupid course boundaries where you have right of way "to get out of jail"),
  • longer (10 minutes or so) pre-starts that really force these pre-start duels,
  • faster infringement rules but less severe (=not race losing) penalties to make the game tighter, But they must allow for fierce battle and risk taking. 
  • etc etc. 

Current AV technology allows eyes and ears to be everywhere and superimposed tactical plots also work on larger race areas, so the TV crowd will still get their fill. However, the commentators now have to show more real insight rather than just following the boats around the course. 

(the ironic thing is that these AV advances on small courses that show a 600m lead actually work adversely: it puts people off watching rather than engaging them, as the result on a short course is almost inevitable)

Assume the technology provides a given performance, and flex the framework and rules to make the event work. That's what F1 (as far as I can tell) have been doing for years. 

 

The Advocate

Super Anarchist
I'd say not. For example a lot of what happened through AC33-35 originated in the C-Class. I think claims of trickle-down from the AC are often exaggerated.
Absolutely! The claim that the AC is at the forefront is so false on so many occasions. The AC in recent history has picked up trends that have been established elsewhere and the over exaggerated them just to say they are the forefront of technology.

This cycle was taking what is happening offshore already and putting it into an inshore package and claiming they are geniuses.

Give me a fucking break.

The boats are awesome, but all they are doing is trying to monetise existing concepts.

 

The Advocate

Super Anarchist
Technology is not the issue, these foiling boats are indeed awesome and a result of the AC technology arms race. However: the lack of variability resulting in inevitability is an issue as with one mistake = you lose. That makes the boats work, but the event not so. 

It makes for lack of spectacle, reduced tactical and strategic options, lack of opportunity for people to make a lasting difference through their choices, input or endurance,  lack of incidents and opportunity (and mishap) to come knocking, lack of heroic story telling. These are all things that all good sports events rely on.

And those restrictions are totally defined by the race framework, not the technology.

  • Longer races where reliability and endurance play a role and that allow strategic choices.
  • Longer, wider (or unbounded) race courses that allow the use of the water, wind, obstacles to shape strategy (and no stupid course boundaries where you have right of way "to get out of jail"),
  • longer (10 minutes or so) pre-starts that really force these pre-start duels,
  • faster infringement rules but less severe (=not race losing) penalties to make the game tighter, But they must allow for fierce battle and risk taking. 
  • etc etc. 

Current AV technology allows eyes and ears to be everywhere and superimposed tactical plots also work on larger race areas, so the TV crowd will still get their fill. However, the commentators now have to show more real insight rather than just following the boats around the course. 

(the ironic thing is that these AV advances on small courses that show a 600m lead actually work adversely: it puts people off watching rather than engaging them, as the result on a short course is almost inevitable)

Assume the technology provides a given performance, and flex the framework and rules to make the event work. That's what F1 (as far as I can tell) have been doing for years. 
There is a lot of sense in this.

 

alvelo

New member
23
10
Venice
AC MUST be ahead in technology. New sailor generations will play foyling and they will desire it more and more. What about a 12 m campain? None of the best sailors will be interested on taking part, it will be declassed into a B series for nostalgic sailors, therefore disappear due to lack of interest and sponsor.

What has been in the bast has ended, even if unique moments and actions will never be forgotten. The future of AC is in the future of the boats. More mistakes will occure of course but the line is drawn. My two cents

 

Sisu3360

Anarchist
623
210
But our sport is multi-faceted and the Cup is exploring that in the new designs.  And it is following what the new generation of sailors are sailing.  All new designs for the next gen are foiling from moths to cats to boards.
It's a facet of the sport that is still inaccessible to most of us. Want to get into displacement sailing? Buy a $1500 beater laser (or cheaper) and mix it up with your local fleet, which you're guaranteed to find nearby. Want to get into foiling? The best you can do is find a used UFO for at least 3-4 times the cost of the laser, and where is your fleet? There was one guy who had one on our lake, and he sold it because he wasn't sailing it. Plenty of Scow and PHRF sailing to be had instead.

Sure, the AC can use any class it wants, but this notion that foiling is the future of sailing is magical thinking that will leave many parts of the community (I daresay its core) behind. Most of us are stuck with the fleets that have critical mass in our areas. I'm not complaining - I'd rather have better competition than the most exciting boat. If I wanted to play with the newest technology above all else I wouldn't have gotten into sailing in the first place.

 

yoyo

Anarchist
762
320
AC does not have to be the knifes edge of technology.  A less costly AC box rule design could easily become a world class event with multiple teams participating.  More races, more global exposure = better event.  Maybe the defender and CoR will agree that something needs to be done to significantly reduce not only the cost but the enviro impact of a sporting event seen by the world as a playground for the ultra wealthy.  The defender may have won but did the cost to play hurt them so much they are partnering up with a wealthy adversary just to stay afloat for the next edition.....

The best sailors / pros need a paycheck.  They will sail for whatever team is footing the bill on whatever barge the event is using.  AC programs offer multi year job security I don't think any will pass up an opportunity because the boat isn't sporty enough.  This AC had some good sailors just grinding with their heads down for an entire race - why - for the $$$.

Interested and dedicated sponsors will go wherever the action is on whatever barge is in play. 

 

Swimsailor

Super Anarchist
4,668
1,957
WA
1983 3-4

1987 0-4
When people cry for the good 'ol days, these two regattas are the only things they are referring to.  And like you highlighted, in 1983 there were extended periods where no maneuvers, no sail changes were happening.  Fuck, even the start of race 7 was boring...no engagement and Australia was 8 seconds late.  

 

Swimsailor

Super Anarchist
4,668
1,957
WA
As for me, the Cup since 2007 has lost me. I no longer feel like I'm watching the same sport that I play. Simple as that.
That's too bad.  I learn something that I can apply to my own racing every time I watch, and I sail a 1984 Capri 25.  All the same principles apply... get time and distance down, get to the favored side, find clear air, perform clean maneuvers, cover your competition, recover from mistakes, never give up.  Mostly I feel sorry for the sailors who can't enjoy the modern America's Cup. You're missing out on something incredible.

 

Dave S

Member
372
132
As for me, the Cup since 2007 has lost me. I no longer feel like I'm watching the same sport that I play. Simple as that.
For me, it's the other way round. I've match-raced small keelboats, so I can understand what's happening before the start, or when Luna Rossa takes TNZ beyond the downwind layline. I've sailed skiffs, so I understand what it's like to bear away in conditions where it may be nearly impossible to sail the boat on a beam reach. I've team-raced skiffs (not very well), so I have a feel for what it's like when the disciplines come together. Something I've spent very little time doing is plugging up and down windward-leeward courses in big, heavy, loaded-up boats that go much the same speed on any point of sail, and rather more slowly than I'd be going in a Wednesday evening race after work. I just don't find it that exciting. I can hoist/drop/gybe/peel spinnakers, but I honestly don't find it that interesting, it's just boat handling; you practice it, then you go out and do it in races. I can relate to AC75 racing in a way that I could never relate to the leadmines.

The AC75s have only completed one regatta, but I've already spent more time watching AC75 than I ever did watching IACC boats. We all like different things, but to me the leadmine racing was sufficiently boring that for entire cup cycles I didn't even look online to see what had happened, I just waited for the writeups in Seahorse.

 

45Roller

Super Anarchist
1,085
375
Ireland
Always this quasi-religious reference to the boring !2 metres; the 12s, in reality of the time period, were complete and utter pigs/dogs/turkeys - and they were NOT the apotheosis  of yacht design of the period.  In that semi-outlaw/outrageous country of radical yacht design and development, you know the one I'm referring to, where the oinker 12s were blindly considered the peak of race yacht development, there had already been, for a number of years, truly advanced, lightweight and outrageously fast sailing designs from Farr, Whiting, Davidson and Young. And dare I mention the other outlaws of the time, the multihulls.
And this same country was dead against building them out of fibre glass, right?  :rolleyes:

 

Sisu3360

Anarchist
623
210
I've already spent more time watching AC75 than I ever did watching IACC boats. We all like different things, but to me the leadmine racing was sufficiently boring that for entire cup cycles I didn't even look online to see what had happened, I just waited for the writeups in Seahorse.
Yeah, it's been the opposite for me. 2000 was my first Cup (I was 11 at the time) and I was enamored. We taped all of the ESPN LVC coverage (broadcast at midnight) and I was hooked watching the AmericaOne vs Prada slugfest ("PROPER COURSE!!!"). In 2007 I listened to the live radio coverage of the LVC because that's all I had access to for livestreaming. Now I'm watching the highlights after the fact. I've been spending more time lately watching replays of match racing at the 2012 Olympics. My first match racing regatta is this summer, and that interest in the Cup growing up definitely got me into the discipline.

 
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Ripply

Member
101
52
Homer Alaska
Here's a request- put a damn muffler on that traveler!  I wanted Luna Rossa to win largely because sailing should involve being able to hear the wind and waves.  I tried to show a race to the wife and that lasted about 3 seconds.  One blast of traveler and that was over and done.  

One more thought- do we actually need chase boats running along behind at all times?  Is there no way to keep the powerboats on the side of the course at intervals?  At least it would give the impression burning a little less fuel for a sailboat race.  Obviously safety issues to consider, but it would be nice to find a different solution.

Other than that, the boats are awesome.  Truly next level stuff, and the first time I've ever wanted to watch an AC.

 

jaysper

Super Anarchist
10,172
1,295
Wellington
When people cry for the good 'ol days, these two regattas are the only things they are referring to.  And like you highlighted, in 1983 there were extended periods where no maneuvers, no sail changes were happening.  Fuck, even the start of race 7 was boring...no engagement and Australia was 8 seconds late.  
Au contraire.

92, 95, 00, 07 were crackers too.

 

The Main Man

Super Anarchist
1,492
310
Blighty
Dare I say it, but isn’t this the equivalent of the old multi vs mono arguments? Sailing is a very broad church some bits you like, others you don’t.

 

Swimsailor

Super Anarchist
4,668
1,957
WA
Au contraire.

92, 95, 00, 07 were crackers too.
Ha!  Have you seen the deltas of those finishes?  In '95 I got in trouble in the dorm common area because the races were so fucking long.  I could never finish watching a race because there was a 2 hour limit to hogging the TV.  And even by that time, my non-sailing friends had lost interest.  In 2000, the exciting part was the LV finals.  The AC regatta was a snoozer by the definition of "exciting" racing according to the complainers here.   

 

Sisu3360

Anarchist
623
210
Ha!  Have you seen the deltas of those finishes?  In '95 I got in trouble in the dorm common area because the races were so fucking long.  I could never finish watching a race because there was a 2 hour limit to hogging the TV.  And even by that time, my non-sailing friends had lost interest.
No argument that courses were WAY too long in years past. If you look at top-level match racing they have 15-20 minute legs, which is about right. You're right that 95 was a boring cycle overall, the defender series shenanigans notwithstanding. 

In 2000, the exciting part was the LV finals.
A snoozer of a Cup Match doesn't diminish a competitive challenger series. "The Catch," "The Drive," and the "Ice Bowl" overshadow the Super Bowls that followed them. The lopsided nature of the AC being a challenge cup means that the Match itself is always at risk of being a snoozer.

 

jaysper

Super Anarchist
10,172
1,295
Wellington
Ha!  Have you seen the deltas of those finishes?  In '95 I got in trouble in the dorm common area because the races were so fucking long.  I could never finish watching a race because there was a 2 hour limit to hogging the TV.  And even by that time, my non-sailing friends had lost interest.  In 2000, the exciting part was the LV finals.  The AC regatta was a snoozer by the definition of "exciting" racing according to the complainers here.   
I am referring to the whole thing including LVC and the 95 and 00 version had some real ding dong battles.

 

Groucho Marx

Anarchist
842
222
auckland, nz
And this same country was dead against building them out of fibre glass, right?  :rolleyes:
Am I missing your subtle innuendo; thought I made it overly obvious I was referring to NZ. Where the first glass 12 metre (Kiwi Magic) was built - when the 12s were all alloy - and the glass Kiwi was considered a grossly unfair cheat. Remember Conner's whinging?

 




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